Martin Luther and William Tyndale on the State of the Dead.

[Alofa Atu]

William R Huntington:

"... But what sort of death? For all that appears to the contrary, total death -- the death of the whole man. Nothing is said about any distinction between body and soul. It was not declared "In the day that thou eatest thereof thy body shall become mortal;" but the warning ran, "In the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surly die." ..." - Conditional Immortality, Plain Sermons On A Topic Of Present Interest by William R. Huntington, D.D., Rector of All Saints Church, Worcester; New York, E. P. Dutton & Company, 1878, page 106 - Conditional immortality : plain sermons on a topic of present interest / by William R. Huntington.

"... What common fire, such as we know it, does for visible things, such as we know them, that eternal fire must do for souls. But what is the common operation of fire upon the things submitted to its action? It certainly is not preservative, but the opposite. The function of fire is to destroy. "Gather ye together first the tares and bind them in bundles to burn the," "He shall burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire ." "If any man build upon this foundation ... wood, hay, stubble ... the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is." Is it natural or even possible to think of the tares, the chaff, the wood and hay and stubble of these illustrations, as continuing in existence after they [page 114-115] have been submitted to such a process as the words describe Of course not. No more, then, is it natural to think of the lost soul as forever resisting the flame that never can be quenched. To all eternity our God must be what He is now, "a consuming fire;" but it is by a fallacious reasoning process that we transfer the eternity from the consumer to the consumed. "Fear Him," Christ says, "which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." If it be urged that it is contrary to God's method in Nature utterly to destroy any substance, and that the action of fire on matter is simply to change the form of it, not to put out of existence the elements of which it is composed, the answer is ready. Fire does not indeed destroy elementary substance, but it does destroy what we call individuality. A ship at sea, for instance, is struck by lightning and burned. Masts, spars, rigging, deck, and hull are successively overmastered by the flame and disappear. Shall any one tell us that because the carbon, oxygen, hydrogen, and [page 115-116] other elements which composed the material of the ship are still in existence, therefore the ship has not been destroyed? To say so is merely to trifle with words. Plainly the ship, as a ship, is gone forever. Its personality, if I may so speak, is lost. ..." - Conditional Immortality, Plain Sermons On A Topic Of Present Interest by William R. Huntington, D.D., Rector of All Saints Church, Worcester; New York, E. P. Dutton & Company, 1878, pages 114-116 - Conditional immortality : plain sermons on a topic of present interest / by William R. Huntington.​

 

[Alofa Atu]

Edward Wightman (burned in 1612), considered part of the 'Anabaptists' (or at least charged as such):

"... 11. That the soul doth sleep in the sleep of the first death, as well as the body, and is mortal as touching the sleep of the first death, as the body is: And that the soul of our Saviour Jesus Christ did sleep in that sleep of death as well as his body. 12. That the souls of the elect saints departed, are not members possessed of the triumphant Church in Heaven." - The Dying Speeches and Behaviour of the several State Prisoners That Have Been Executed the Last 300 Years. with Their Several CHARACTERS From The Best Historians, As Cambden, Spotswood, Clarendon, Sprat, Burnet, &c. And A TABLE shewing how the respective SENTENCES were Executed, and which of them were Mitigated, or Pardon'd. Being a proper SUPPLEMENT to the State-Tryals. LONDON: Printed for J. Brotherton, and W. Meadows, at the Black-Bull in Cornhill; F. Clay, at the Bible without Temple-Bar; C. Rivington, at the Bible and Crown in St. Paul's Church-Yard; and J. Graves, near White's Chocolate-House in St. James's-street. MDCCXX (1720), page 12 - The Dying Speeches and Behaviour of the Several State Prisoners that Have Been Executed the Last 300 Years​

 

[Alofa Atu]

Thomas Sidebotham (1646)

"... Mr. ________

I received your Note, and for answer thereto, hoping you are not of the spirit of those which sent to Christ to intangle him in his words; neither am I afraid to declare what my Faith is, for I believe the word of God contained in the Old and New Testament to be a truth; yet in them I cannot find that man or any part of man is Immortal, but that he is wholly Mortal, even whole man is wholly Mortal, and ceaseth to have any lively Being betwixt Death and the Resurrection: Now if this be an Errour thus to beleeve, I require you as you are a Christian, and spiritual, to restore such a one in the spirit of meeknesse, and to convince by sound Doctrine the gainsayer, proving by scripture what you do affirm, and if you affirm a Mortal soul, that you will according to rationality give Answers to those Queries you have, and then I will Reply that so we may bring it unto the ballance, and weight the scriptures on both sides, and so hoping in a loving and Christian way to bring the grounds of these to light, I rest. Thomas Sidebotham. ... Aug. 3. 1646. ..." - GANGRAENA: or A Catalogue and Discovery of many of the Errours, Heresies, Blasphemies and Pernicious Practices of the Sectaries of this time, vented and acted in England in these four last years: As Also, A Particular Narration of divers Stories, Remarkable Passages, Letters; an Extract of many Letters, all concerning the present Sects; together with some Observations upon, and Corollaries from all the fore-named Premisses. By Thomas Edwards Minister of the Gospel. LONDON, Printed for Ralph Smith, at the Signe of the Bible in Corn-hill near the Royall-Exchange. M.DC.XLVI. (1646), page 67 - Gangraena : or A catalogue and discovery of many of the errours, heresies, blasphemies and pernicious practices of the sectaries of this time .. : Edwards, Thomas, 1599-1647 : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive​

 

[Alofa Atu]

William Bowling of Crambrock in Kent (July 1646):

"... That the souls of Divels [Devils] and all other men are mortall as well as their bodies, and that there was none immortall but God.

... That if the soul which was the breath of God were not mortal, then the breath of God, which is part of God, should be eternally tormented in Hell.

... That (those words) to day, or this day shalt thou be with me in Paradise, is so to be understood (I) at the day of Resurrection which I [Jesus] come personally ...

... that place in Eccles. 12.7. is not to be understood as if the soul after death was really separated from the body, for ... the souls of men rest in the grave with their bodies till the resurrection, and then Christ raises up both together ...

... It is injustice in God to punish the souls of the wicked in Hell while their bodies lat at rest in their graves, for seeing both were sinners together, both must be sufferer together, if God should punish the soul of Cain in Hell five or six thousand yeers before he punish the body of Cain, he then would shew himself partiall in his distribution of justice. ..." - GANGRAENA: or A Catalogue and Discovery of many of the Errours, Heresies, Blasphemies and Pernicious Practices of the Sectaries of this time, vented and acted in England in these four last years: As Also, A Particular Narration of divers Stories, Remarkable Passages, Letters; an Extract of many Letters, all concerning the present Sects; together with some Observations upon, and Corollaries from all the fore-named Premisses. By Thomas Edwards Minister of the Gospel. LONDON, Printed for Ralph Smith, at the Signe of the Bible in Corn-hill near the Royall-Exchange. M.DC.XLVI. (1646), pages 36-37 - Gangraena : or A catalogue and discovery of many of the errours, heresies, blasphemies and pernicious practices of the sectaries of this time .. : Edwards, Thomas, 1599-1647 : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
​

There is something of interest in this persons (William Bowling) theology in regards the suffering of God in relation to those who teach that God tortures persons forever in Hellfire. Notice, that William denies that God suffers eternally. For those that teach that the spirit/soul of mankind, as they incorrectly teach - is a separate entity apart from the body itself, which came from God, and some would even teach is 'part' of God, and thus, William concludes that if eternal torment in hellfire were true, and immortal soul/spirit theology were true, then God would be actually torturing Himself for eternity. Interesting conclusion. Scripture states that God is "long suffering", but never "eternally suffering". Even if the persons soul/spirit (as they teach) were not acknowledged as 'part' of God, but self-sustaining, as 'made' that way by God, yet God is Omniscient and by such Omnipresent, would then feel and know all of the eternal suffering pain Himself that He is inflicting upon these immortal sinners (no such thing in scripture exists).

It is also interesting to see in print, that this person even understood that devils themselves are not immortal, but mortal and can be therefore destroyed or reduced to nothing as before.

While this person, apparently (and incorrectly) believed Jesus to reign upon the earth for 1,000 years, they understood that the resurrection was key to understanding the state of the dead, in that even the Thief on the cross would not see or enter such kingdom until Jesus' 2nd Advent/Return, when the First Great resurrection was to take place.

 

[Alofa Atu]

Joachim Stegmann (1633), writing against Calvinistic dogma, and Papal Purgatory and Saint worship (which is what happens when immortal soul/spirit theology is taught, a natural consequence), invokes the scriptures, stating that the dead are dead (asleep, and in that sense 'alive unto God' (as some wrest to their destruction, or give excuse), as Abraham, Isaac & Jacob, whom God will raise in the resurrection to come), and are while in that condition, unable to do anything, both the wicked and also the saints whose 'spirits' (their breaths) are in the hand of God until their respective resurrection, at which point God breathes into them and they live again:

"... CAP. VIII.

An mortui proprie vivant?

Adhuc in genere vidimus eos qui Lutherum Calvin umque sequuntur in religione duces, non posse solide refutare Pontificos. Iam si ad particularia descendendum esset, ingens se nobis offerret excurrendi campus. Verum [page 39-40] ne constitutos brevitati termino trasiliamus, paucissima paucis tantum delibabimus. Ostendemus autem primum; eos fundamenta vel suppeditare, vel conservare gravissimorum errorum qui vigent apud Pontificos. Deinde talia eos docere, quae immerito non adversus Pontificos tantum; sed & adversus ipsissimam religionis Christianae animam, veram nempe pietatem defenduntur. Et ad prius quide genus pertinet, quod mortuos vivere statuunt. Absurdum videbitur. Et certe res absurdissima est. Attamen illi credunt. Existimant enim animas hominum, eo ipso momento, quo per mortem a corporibus separantur, deferri vel ad coelum, ibique gaudium sentire coeleste, & omnibus perfrui bonis, quae Deus fuis pollicitus est; vel ad infernu, ibique torqueri & cruciari igni illo inextinguibili. Idque, uti dictum, animabus solis a corporibus separatis tribuunt, etiam ante ipsorum hominum resurrectione: Id est, dum adhuc sunt mortui. [page 40-41] Illa autem cotingere non possunt nisi viventi. Quod enim non vivit, id neque sentit, adeoque nec voluptate fruitur, nec dolorem patitur. Credunt ergo reipsa mortuos vivere. Eo nimirum modo, quo Petrum, Paulum, aliosque demortuos in coelis vivere asserunt. Hoc autem fundamentum est no tantum Purgatorii, sed & nefandae istius idoloatriae, quae in sanctorum demortuorum invocatione apud Pontificios cernitur. Tolle illue; & istis nullus erit locus. Quorsum purgatorius ignis, si animae a corporibus separatae nihil sentiant? Quorsum preces ad Mariam, Petrum, Paulum, aliosque demortuos, si nec preces audire, nec pro te intercedere queant? Contra si illud admitta, haud facile sanctorum invocatione evertes. Etsi ero res per se talis sit, quae cuivis absurda videri mereatur; videbimus tamen annon in Scripturis ejus habeatur contrarium. Offert autem exemplo sese Christi argumentatio illa, qua probat futuram martuorum resurrectionem, ex eo, quod [page 41-42] Deus sit Deus Abrahami, Isaaci, & Iacobi: non sit autem Deus mortuorum, sed viventium: unde concludit eos Deo vivere, id est, a Deo in vitam revocatum iri, ut is se Deum eorum seu benefactorem illis exhibere possit. Haec argumentatio fallax omnino esset, si etiam antequam resurgerent, gaudiu coeleste perciperent. Tum enim Deus ipsorum Deus seu benefactor esset, nempe secundum animas, etiamsi nunquam resurgerent corpora. Similiter fallax Pauli Apostoli argumentatio esset, qua probat resurrectionem mortuorum ex eo: quia alioqui, qui in Christum credunt frustra periclitarentur omnibus horis, frustra tot calamitates propter Christum sustinerent: quod suo ipsius exemplo docet. Deinde, quia alioqui satius sit illius Epicuri de grege porci cantilenam concinere: Edamus & bibamus, cras enim morimur. Summa, Christiani hominum omnium essent miserrimi. Certe hoc falsum esset, si pii statim a morte secundum animas coelesti fruerentur faecilitate, impiique crucia- [page 42-43] tum sentirent. Non frustra enim illi calamitates tolerarent; nec impune isti voluptates carnis sectarentur. Essentque pii impiis longe faeliciores, etiamsi corpora ipsorum nunquam resuscitarentur. Quum vero longe absurdissimu sit dicere, Christum Apostolumque male argumentatos fuisse: an parum liquet falsum id est dogma quo stante Christo Apostoloque tanta absurditas adscribenda esset? Deinde, cur Petrus salutem animarum in ultimum tempus; cur Paulus coronam justitiae in illum diem judicii rejiceret? Cui bono judicium institueretur? Qui de piis V. F. dici posset, eos non accepisse promissionem: Deo pro nobis aliquid melius providente, ne sine nobis consummarentur? si cujusque anima statim a mprte etiam sine corpore coelestem sentiret foelicitatem? Sed & rei ipsius natura id falsum esse docet. Nonne vivere, mori, sentire, audire, agere sunt hominis totius, seu compositi ex anima & corpore? Nonne corpus animae instrumentum est, sine quo illa functiones suas exequi [page 43-44] minime potest? Ut opifex artem operandi novit quidem; sed nisi instrumenta ad manus sint, effectum producere nequit. Claudatur oculus, non videbit anima; utut vis videndi nequaqua ei ademta sit. Simul atque enim instrumentum reddideris; protinus homo videbit. Itaque animae a corporibus separate nec mortue sunt, nec vivunt, adeoque neque gaudium, neque dolorem sentiunt. Ea enim totius sunt compositi. Scriptura autem dicit, mortuos non esse: Spiritum redire ad eum qui dedit: & de piorum spiritibus, eos in manu Dei esse. At in resurrectione cu corporibus jungentur. Et tum nactae instrumenta operationes suas exerent. ..." - Brevis disquisitio, an & quomodo vulgo dicti euangelici pontificios, ac nominatim Val. Magni de Acatholicorum credendi regula judicium solide atque evidenter refutare queant. by Joachim Stegmann; ELEUTHEOROPOLI, Apud Godfridum Philalethium. Anno M DC XXXIII. (1633), pages 39-44 - Brevis disquisitio, an & quomodo vulgo dicti euangelici pontificios, ac nominatim Val. Magni de acatholicorum credendi regula judicium solidè atque evidenter refutare queant : Stegmann, Joachim : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
​

A portion (highlighted in bold red) translated into English, just to make the connection:

"... [the "papists"] believe in effect that the dead live.... Now this is the foundation not only of Purgatory, but also of that horrible Idolatry practised amongst the Papists, whilest they invocate the Saints that are dead. Take this away and there will be no place left for the others. To what purpose is the fire of Purgatory, if souls separated from the bodies feel nothing? To what purpose are prayers to the Virgin Mary, to Peter, and Paul, and other dead men, if they can neither hear prayers nor intercede for you? On the contrary, if you admit this, you cannot easily overthrow the invocation of Saints." ..."​

 

[Alofa Atu]

John Reeve & Lodowick Muggleton (aka "Muggletonians"):

"... 36. If according to the divine truth of scriptures, thou art made to confess that the pure soul of Adam was overcome of sin, and therewith all defiled through his whole man, though men or angels should gainsay it, thou mayest be fully assured that both the soul and body of Adam are in the dust of the earth dead asleep, void of all life, light, motion, heat, or any thing appearing unto life, until that second man, Adam, the Lord from heaven, by the mighty power of his word, doth or shall raise him again, and all mankind that are asleep with him in the dust, at the last day. ..." - A Divine Looking-Glass; or The Third and Last Testament of Our Lord Jesus Christ, whose Personal Residence Is Seated On His Throne Of Eternal Glory In Another World ... by John Reeve & Lodowick Muggleton, page 110 - A Divine Looking-Glass: or, the third and last testament of our Lord Jesus Christ, etc
​

These two individuals are rather interesting in history, but one must be careful with the remainder of their material and teachings as it reeked of fanatical spiritualism. They are what began the "Muggletonian" group, in the midst of the "Great Awakening" or "Advent Movement". They, very incorrectly, claimed to be the "Third Testament" of Jesus Christ, being the "Two Witnesses" of Revelation. So, whatever else they taught is not in view, only that a great general number of persons during this timeframe 1800's, taught the soul-sleep doctrine, in one form or another. I also found it interesting that they actually understood Jesus Christ to be on another actual world (as per Title of the material). Many held to the idea (even as they do today, real Heaven (3rd, aka "Paradise", or Eden above) being burned up in the fires of spiritualism) that Heaven was an aeatheral place 'up-there' somewhere, as if Jesus vanished into the aether of the cosmos when ascending, and spread himself out everywhere (pantheism), which is gross error. It is amazing what the devil will do, to combine truth with error, so that truth in it's midst is tarnished and mocked along with the error.

 

[Alofa Atu]

John Wycliffe:

I am including John Wycliffe in this as an interesting case, not that he understood completely the state of the dead, as he was deeply in the midst of those dark ages, and was just beginning to come to light, but so that those that might desire to include him, at least have an understanding of his theological position, and not to overemphasize it as L.E. Froom does in Conditionalist faith of our Fathers when he says, Wycliffe, "... Though he still believed in the separate existence of the soul, he taught that the state between death and the resurrection is that of sleep. Moreover, he held that the judgment of rewards would not take place until after the resurrection. ..." (L.E. Froom, The Conditionalist Faith Of Our Fathers, Vol. II, page 59, #3 - Doctrine - Death - LeRoy Edwin Froom - The Conditionalist Faith Of Our Fathers Volume 02 : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

Wycliffe actually taught Three phases for the Church of God (*which to him was, at the time, was basically Roman Catholicism):

[1] Church in Battle (Church Militant)
[2] Church in Sleep (Church in Purgatory, the dead saints not yet in Heaven)
[3] Church in Bliss (Church in Heaven)​

Some of the references that L.E. Froom refers to in Vol . II of Conditionals Faith Of Our Fathers, are some of these (modern English follows each statement):

"... ye kirk sleping in purgatory ..." - An Apology For Lollard Doctrines, Attributed To Wicliffe. Now First Printed From a Manuscript In The Library Of Trinity College, Dublin. With An Introduction and Notes, by James Henthorn Todd, D.D. V.P.R.I.A., Fellow Of Trinity College, and Treasurer of St. Patrick's Cathedral, Dublin. LONDON: Printed for the Camden Society, by John Bowyer Nichols and Son, Paraliament Street. M.DCCC.XLII. (1842), page 16 - An apology for Lollard doctrines : Wycliffe, John, d. 1384 : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

[Modern English] "... the church sleeping in purgatory ..."​

"... seintis slepinge in purgatorie ..." - Wyclif, Select English Works, Volume III, page 53 - Select English works of John Wyclif; : Wycliffe, John, d. 1384 : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

[Modern English] "... saints sleeping in purgatory ..."​

"... On ye secunde manere is ye Churche yseyd to be disposed, for yulke that beth passed out of this worlde, and yit beth nought come to reste of lyf in blysse, bot restey in purgatorie, and suffery peyne for synne, abyding 1 the mercy of God to delyvere hem out of peyn. And whanne the Churche is thus disposed, it is ycleped the restyng Churche; and her-of speketh Seynt Poul whanne he syth that fuyr schal preve the worke of everyche. ..." - Wyclif, Select English Works, Volume III, page 102 - Select English works of John Wyclif; : Wycliffe, John, d. 1384 : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

[Modern English] "... On the second manner is the Church (is/to be) said to be disposed, for (if you) like that be passed out of this world, and (is) it be nought come to rest of life in bliss (Heaven), but rests in purgatory, and suffering pain for sin, abiding 1 the mercy of God to deliver them out of pain. And when the Church is thus disposed, it is called/named the resting Church; and of her, speaks Saint Paul when he says that fire shall prove the work of everyone. ..."​

"... ye myddil is clepid slepyng ..." - Wyclif, Select English Works, Volume III, page 339 - Select English works of John Wyclif; : Wycliffe, John, d. 1384 : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

[Modern English] "... the middle [second part of the church, ie, the dead saints in purgatory] is called/named sleeping ..."​

"... Ye secound part of yis Chirche ben sentis in purgatorie; (* yes synnen not of ye newe/ [page III-IV] but purgen her olde synne; (* many errours fallen in preiying for yeis seyntis; (* siy yei all ben deede in body/ Cristi wordis may be takun of hem/ sue we Crist in our liif/ (* late ye deede berie ye dede. Ye yridde part of ye chirche ben trewe men yet here lyven/ yat shulden aftir be savyed in heavene/ (* lyven here cristen-mennes liif. Ye first part is clepid over-coming. Ye myddil is clepid slepyng. Ye yridde is clepid figtyng. And alle yes maken oo chirche. ..." - Three Treatises by John Wycklyffe, D.D. I. Of The Church And Her Members, pages III-IV - http://historiayverdad.org/Three-treatises-by-john-wycklyffe.pdf

[Modern English] "... The second part of this Church being saints in purgatory; (* these sins (are) not of the new [meaning: committing new sins] [page III-IV] but purging her old sin; (* many errors fallen in praying for these saints; (* since they all being dead in body / Christ's words may be taken of them/ (per)sue [follow] we Christ in our life/ (* let the dead bury the dead. The third part of the church being true men yet here living/ that should after be saved in Heaven/ (* living here Christian life. The first part [of the Church] is named/called over-coming. The middle [second part] is named/called sleeping. The third [part] is named/called fighting [Church militant on earth, still living]. And all these make out (the) Church. ..."​

I have placed each reference with the citation, so that any may read them for themselves. These are not the only references by Wycliffe on the matter, but they give a quick summary of his understanding, for the times in which he lived.

So, it can be seen that L.E. Froom overstepped just a bit with Wycliffe. Wycliffe, still a Roman Catholic at the time, and deep in the errors of the dark ages, though beginning to come to light, still taught "Purgatorie" (that false theological middle ground between earth and Heaven for God's saints where they must be purged of their sins that remain), but called it by name of the sleeping/resting church. Now, by this, Wycliffe, did not mean as later understood (as Tyndale/Luther, etc) that those deceased were without feeling/action/existence. He definitely taught that the body and soul were individual things, and could be separated, and thus the 'soulis' (souls) in Purgatory were very much feeling "peyne" (pain) and "fuyr" (fire), though their bodies had returned to dust.

Now, the difference that Wycliffe hit on, and differed with the theology of Roman Catholicism in this, that prayers for the saint in purgatory were unavailing. It was useless to pray for such, as he says, "many errours fallen in preiying for yeis seyntis" [many errors fallen in praying for these saints]. Why? Wycliffe's reasoning from scripture was this, "... since they all being dead in body / Christ's words may be taken of them/ (per)sue [follow] we Christ in our life/ (* let the dead bury the dead." [* since they all being dead in body / Christ's words may be taken of them/ (per)sue [follow] we Christ in our life/ (* let the dead bury the dead]. In other words let those in Purgatory pray for themselves, for the living cannot affect the dead by such prayer.

This was the major departure that led to the others later understanding. For once prayer for those in Purgatory was questioned and seen to be a waste of time, the theology of Purgatory itself became questioned, and as more and more studied the state of the dead, they came to realize that there was no such thing/place as Purgatory in scripture, and neither could the dead hear/see/understand/do anything, being dead in the grave, and thus truly, in all appearance, to be asleep, resting in the grave where they were buried, etc, and that once deceased a man's eternal judgment (to resurrection of Eternal life or Eternal death (2nd death)) was sealed, and could not be affected by what men did here on earth.

 

[Alofa Atu]

Captain B.

"... A worthy Member of the House of Commons told me the last day of August, that one Captaine B. told him we had beene fed by our Ministers that men's souls when they die went to heaven; but now we see a New Light in that they do not go to heaven; to whom this Parliament man replyed, That the souls of the faithfull so; for Christ told the thief, Luke 24 To day shalt thou be with me in Paradise: unto whom this Captain replyed, That to [page 100-101] day was referred to Christs saying so, and not to the time when he should be in Paradise, so that the meaning was, Christ said unto the thief those words to day, but not that to day he should be in paradise with him, and so the words were to be read, Verily I say unto thee to day, and there the point; and then after to be read, thou shalt be with me in Paradise; which though it should not be to the end of the world, would be no impeachment of the truth of Christ's speech ..." - GANGRAENA: or A Catalogue and Discovery of many of the Errours, Heresies, Blasphemies and Pernicious Practices of the Sectaries of this time, vented and acted in England in these four last years: As Also, A Particular Narration of divers Stories, Remarkable Passages, Letters; an Extract of many Letters, all concerning the present Sects; together with some Observations upon, and Corollaries from all the fore-named Premisses. By Thomas Edwards Minister of the Gospel. LONDON, Printed for Ralph Smith, at the Signe of the Bible in Corn-hill near the Royall-Exchange. M.DC.XLVI. (1646), pages 100-101 - Gangraena : or A catalogue and discovery of many of the errours, heresies, blasphemies and pernicious practices of the sectaries of this time .. : Edwards, Thomas, 1599-1647 : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive​

 

[Alofa Atu]

Thomas Hobbes:

"... Hitherto I have set forth the nature of Man, (whose Pride and other Passions have compelled him to submit himselfe to Government together with the great power of his Governor, whom I compared to Leviathan, taking that comparison out of the two last verses of the one and fortieth of Job; where God having set forth the great power of Leviathan, called him King of the Proud. There is nothing, saith he, on earth, to be compared with him. He is made so as not to be afraid. Hee seeth every high thing below him; and is King of all the children of Pride. But because he is mortall, and subject to decay, as all other Earthly creatures are; and because there is that in heaven, (though not on earth) that he should stand in fear of, and whose Lawes he ought to obey; I shall in the next following Chapters speak of his Diseases, and the causes of his Mortality; and of what Lawes of Nature he is bound to obey. ..." - LEVIATHAN, by Thomas Hobbes, introduction by A.D. Lindsay, LONDON: J. M. Dent & Sons LTD, New York, E. P. Dutton & Co. Inc., page 170 - Hobbes Leviathan : A.d. Lindsay : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive


"... As the Kingdome of God, and Eternal Life, so also Gods Enemies, and their Torments after Judgment, appear by the Scripture, to have their place on Earth. The name of the place, where all men remain till the Resurrection, that were either buryed, or swallowed up of the Earth, is usually called in Scripture, by words that signifie under ground; which the Latines read generally Infernus, and Inferi, and the Greeks ᾅδης; that is to say, a place where men cannot see and containeth as well the Grave, as any other deeper place. But for the place of the damned after the Resurrection, it is not determined, neither in the Old, nor New Testament, by any note of situation; but onely by the company: as that it shall bee, where such wicked men were, as God in former times in extraordinary, and miraculous manner, had destroyed from off the face of the Earth: As for example, that they are in Inferno, in Tartarus, or in the bottomelesse pit; because Corahh, Dathan, and Abirom, were swallowed up alive into the earth. Not that the Writers of the Scripture would have us beleeve, there could be in the globe of the Earth, which is not only finite, but also (compared to the height of the Stars) of no considerable magnitude, a pit without a bottome; that is, a hole of infinite depth, such as the Greeks in their Daemonologie (that is to say, in their doctrine concerning Daemons,) and after them the Romans called Tartarus; of which Virgill sayes.

Bis patet in praeceps, tantum tenditque sub umbras,
Quantus ad aethereum coeli suspectus Olympum

for that is a thing the proportion of Earth to Heaven cannot bear; [page 244-245] but that wee should beleeve them there, indefinitely, where those men are, on whom God inflicted that Exemplary punishment.

Again, because those mighty men of the Earth, that lived in the time of Noah, before the flood, (which the Greeks called Heroes, and the Scripture Giants, and both say, were begotten, by copulation of the children of God, with the children of men,) were for their wicked life destroyed by the generall deluge; the place of the Damned, is therefore also sometimes marked out, by the company of those deceased Giants; as Proverbs 21 16. The man that wandereth out of the way of understanding, shall remain in the congregation of the Giants, and Job 26.5 Behold the Giants groan under water, and they that dwell with them. Here the place of the Damned, is under the water. And Isaiah 14. 9. Hell is troubled how to meet thee, (that is, the King of Babylon) and will displace the Giants for thee: and here again the place of the Damned, (if the sense be literall,) is to be under water.

Thirdly, because the Cities of Sodom, and Gomorrah, by the extraordinary wrath of God, were consumed for their wickednesse with Fire and Brimstone, and together with them the countrey about made a stinking bituminous Lake: the place of the Damned is sometimes expressed by Fire, and a Fiery Lake: as in the Apocalypse ch. 21. 8. But the timorous, incredulous, and abominable, and Murderers, and Whoremongers, and Sorcerers, and Idolaters, and all Lyars, shall have their part in the Lake that burneth with Fire, and Brimstone; which is the second Death. So that it is manifest, that Hell Fire, which is here expressed by Metaphor, from the reall Fire of Sodome, signifieth not any certain kind, or place of Torment; but it to be taken indefinitely, for Destruction, as it is in the 20. Chapter, at the 14. verse; where it is said, that Death and Hell were cast into the Lake of Fire; that is to say, were abolished, and destroyed; as if after the day of Judgment, there shall be no more Dying, nor no more going to Hades (from which word perhaps our word Hell is derived,) which is the same with no more Dying.

Fourthly, from the Plague of Darknesse inflicted on the Egyptians, of which it is written (Exod. 10. 23.) They saw not one another, neither rose any man from his place for three days; but all the children of Israel had light in their dwellings; the place of the wicked after Judgment, is called Utter Darknesse, or (as it is in the originall) Darknesse without. And so it is expressed (Mat 22. 13.) where the King commandeth his Servants, to bind hand and foot the man that had not on his Wedding garment, and to cast him out, εις το σκοτος το εξωτερον, Externall darknesse, or Darknesse without: which though translated Utter darknesse, does not signifie how great, but where that darknesse is to be; namely, without the habitation of Gods Elect.

Lastly, whereas there was a place neer Jerusalem, called the Valley of the Children of Hinnon; in a part whereof, called Tophet, the Jews had committed most grievous Idolatry, sacrificing their children to the Idol Moloch; and wherein also God had afflicted [page 245-246] his enemies with most grievous punishments; and wherein Josias had burnt the Priests of Moloch upon their own Altars, as appeareth at large in the 2 of Kings chap 23. the place served afterwards, to receive the filth, and garbage which was carried thither, out of the City; and there used to be fires made, from time to time, to purifie the aire, and take away the stench of Carrion. From this abominable place, the Jews used ever after to call the place of the Damned, by the name of Gehenna, or Valley of Hinnon. And this Gehenna, is that word, which is usually now translated Hell, and from the fires from time to time there burning, we have the notion of Everlasting, and Unquenchable Fire.

Seeing now there is none, that so interprets the Scripture, as that after the day of Judgment, the wicked are all Eternally to be punished in the Valley of Hinnon; or that they shall so rise again, as to be ever after under ground, or under water; or that after the Resurrection, they shall no more see one another; nor stir from one place to another; ..." - LEVIATHAN, by Thomas Hobbes, introduction by A.D. Lindsay, LONDON: J. M. Dent & Sons LTD, New York, E. P. Dutton & Co. Inc., pages 244-246 - Hobbes Leviathan : A.d. Lindsay : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

"... yet I find that none affirm there shall bee an Eternall Life therein of any individuall person; but to the contrary, an Everlasting Death, which is the Second Death: For after Death, and the Grave shall have delivered up the dead which were in them, and every man be judged according to his works; Death and the Grave shall also be cast into the Lake of Fire. This is the Second Death. Whereby it is evident, that there is to bee a Second Death of every one what shall bee condemned at the day of Judgment, after which hee shall die no more. ..." - LEVIATHAN, by Thomas Hobbes, introduction by A.D. Lindsay, LONDON: J. M. Dent & Sons LTD, New York, E. P. Dutton & Co. Inc., page 247 - Hobbes Leviathan : A.d. Lindsay : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive​

 

[Alofa Atu]

Emil Brunner:

"... Our death will be the dying of the whole man and not merely of the body. The whole man must pass through an experience of annihilation which affects the whole man, since the whole man is a sinner. ..." - Man in Revolt: A Christian Anthropology, trans. Olive Wyon (Lutterworth Press, Cambridge, 1939), by Emil Brunner (1957, reprint 2002); pages 475-476 - Man in Revolt

"... 1. The view of the body as the prison of the soul is also completely remote from the thought of Paul. ..." - Man in Revolt: A Christian Anthropology, trans. Olive Wyon (Lutterworth Press, Cambridge, 1939), by Emil Brunner (1957, reprint 2002); page 375 (foot note 1) - Man in Revolt​

 

[Ronnie Vaughan]

Wouldn't it be easier to read what the Bible says about a subject, than to read what others say the Bible says about a subject?

 

[Alofa Atu]

Wouldn't it be easier to read what the Bible says about a subject, than to read what others say the Bible says about a subject?

Sure - and it is always what I start with first (even the video I provided does that). Yet, when we do that, people don't listen and think this idea is not taught in scripture, so the quotations are given to show the chain of history in the many that have also studied the subject and seen it there also, from earliest to later (now) times.

They say it is 'cultish' to teach this ideology, and yet if so, that would make all these 'cultish'. They do not rightly reason from start to finish using their own standard.

So, if you would like to discuss this subject from scripture, we should start in the beginning and work our way through.

 

[Alofa Atu]

Just attached all of the quotes so far in this thread. If any quotes come after this point, they are not placed in this document (yet).

 

[Ronnie Vaughan]

Sure - and it is always what I start with first (even the video I provided does that). Yet, when we do that, people don't listen and think this idea is not taught in scripture, so the quotations are given to show the chain of history in the many that have also studied the subject and seen it there also, from earliest to later (now) times.

They say it is 'cultish' to teach this ideology, and yet if so, that would make all these 'cultish'. They do not rightly reason from start to finish using their own standard.

So, if you would like to discuss this subject from scripture, we should start in the beginning and work our way through.

I believe the following.

"16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work." 2 Tim. 3:16-17

And very strongly so, because if I had not studied my way out I would still be a 4th generation Seventh Day Adventist. I learned early on that it makes not a hill of beans difference who said what about any doctrine, other than what is stated in scripture. Almost anything can be lined up with a list of names who believed it. Secondly I have learned from a multitude of debates with family members that debating doctrines that are secondary almost never change anyone's mind; and, most often the person pressing an issue is more interested in winning a debate than changing minds, that is, they have already mad up their mind and are just spitting out information without really thinking about it (spamming s to speak).

I could definitely be wrong, but all the info you have posted seems to me to resemble such a trait. You didn't just make a point-you so over killed it - that virtually nobody would be willing to spend the time to actually read all that information.

In any case, I believe in Soul Liberty, and I haven't seen anything said that would deny a cardinal doctrine of the historic Christian faith, so I would agree to disagree. We are all heterodox at some point. God bless!

 

[Alofa Atu]

I believe the following.

"16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work." 2 Tim. 3:16-17

So do I. It's why I posted the video material, which contains the words of scripture in a methodical manner.

And very strongly so, because if I had not studied my way out I would still be a 4th generation Seventh Day Adventist.

I do not believe in such things called this or that "generation Seventh Day Adventist" (sic). I only believe in born again, converted people as such. I get what you mean however, but simply having ancestors that were faithful (I only assume) in the faith (Seventh-day Adventist), doesn't count for anything, other than having a good start, unlike myself, who was raised in the darkness and superstition (and I mean this. I can point to examples even on CAF right now) of Roman Catholicism.

I learned early on that it makes not a hill of beans difference who said what about any doctrine, other than what is stated in scripture.

True. I wasn't using any of the quotes as foundation for any doctrine. I was using them as evidence of an historical chain, a wide collective of the Christians at large, so that no one can say it is merely a cultish isolated doctrine. I am 'unloading' that 'gun' so to speak. I have done the same with Michael archangel, see attachments. It's kind of what L. E. Froom was attempting to do, with his monumental works, Conditionalist Faith of Our Fathers, V. I & II, and Prophetic Faith of Our Fathers, V. I-IV.

https://archive.org/download/doctri...itionalist Faith Of Our Fathers Volume 01.pdf

https://archive.org/download/doctri...itionalist Faith Of Our Fathers Volume 02.pdf

https://archive.org/download/prophe...ic Faith Of Our Fathers 01 - PFOF1950-V01.pdf

https://archive.org/download/prophe...ic Faith Of Our Fathers 02 - PFOF1948-V02.pdf

https://archive.org/download/prophe...ic Faith Of Our Fathers 03 - PFOF1946-V03.pdf

https://archive.org/download/prophe...ic Faith Of Our Fathers 04 - PFOF1954-V04.pdf

Almost anything can be lined up with a list of names who believed it.

Not really. While attempts could be made to try to show who believed 'flat earth' for instance could be tried, as an example, it would not be found in the majority and wide ecclective of Christian thought. It would have little to 0 historical chain. It would not be found as a major point of contention in the Reformation, etc.

The lists provided show a continual thought that has existed, found in the Reformation at all levels, was used against Roman Catholicisim's dogmas (anti-Christ), and those who taught it, always used scripture as foundation, and some added also philosophical material as well. Yet in such cases, like Hobbes LEVIATHAN, even his foundation was scripture.

Secondly I have learned from a multitude of debates with family members that debating doctrines that are secondary ...

This seems to imply that you believe that the state of the Dead is a "secondary" doctrine. The state of the dead is not "secondary", as it directly bears upon the Gospel itself, as this video shows:

Those who do not watch this presentation, have no idea the importance of the doctrine, for it is in no way "secondary". Those who willingly (<--, God has mercy upon the ignorant, but desires all men to repent)) ignore this, are in eternal peril.

almost never change anyone's mind;

It is not the 'mind' (logic) I am after so much, as the 'heart'. Not intellect, but conversion.

and, most often the person pressing an issue is more interested in winning a debate than changing minds,

I am interested in truth. not winning a debate. I know what the doctrine means, and how it is part of the everlasting Gospel itself.

 

[Alofa Atu]

that is, they have already mad up their mind

My mind is made up after the evidence of scripture and understanding what it means in the gospel. I used to be Roman Catholic and had believed in 'immortal soul/spirit' theology previously. So, my 'mind' was persuaded by the word of God, to the solid foundation it now stands upon. Anyone that takes a position, that doesn't know if the position they are standing upon is sure is merely guessing, and not knowing what is truth.

I do not believe in wishy-washy Christianity, and Christ's doctrines are not to be guessed at. They are to be thoroughly and intimately known, experienced and carried out every day in the life.

and are just spitting out information without really thinking about it (spamming s to speak).

That is not myself. See the history. The 'spammers' are those who continually make assinine comments (not speaking of yourself) without contributing to any thought worth while considering. They exist in this thread.

I could definitely be wrong

Chalk another 'wrong'. But do not be discouraged, in so admitting.

but all the info you have posted seems to me to resemble such a trait.

I am more than willing to discuss anything in this thread. What I haven't found is anyone willing to do so. All that happened so far, is people make Ad Hominem against the person posting, or the general material, but do not address the content of the material, the historical nature of the material, the reasoning in the material, etc.

You didn't just make a point-you so over killed it - that virtually nobody would be willing to spend the time to actually read all that information.

I read it, and so too will others interested in the doctrine, and its historicity, logic, etc. In fact, I didn't even have 1/10th of the material before posting in this thread. It is all recent research and reading of materials. If you, or they, choose not to read it, that is their prerogative, but I would never desire to have any part of such a religion as that. I love the religion that desires truth above all things. Loves the historical aspect. Loves the logic. Loves the chain, even as found in scripture. For instance, Jesus used the chain of those in the OT that believed in Creation, Flood, etc. So did Peter and Jude. They cited numerous examples. Stephen, while arrested, cited an entire history of the people's Israel from the time of Abraham. Those in the Sanhedrin must have been bored to death, right before their excitement of the game of 'stoning'.

In any case, I believe in Soul Liberty, and I haven't seen anything said that would deny a cardinal doctrine of the historic Christian faith

That is an aprioric statement (ie "cardinal doctrine of the historic Christian faith") that has not foundation in truth, and you provided no evidence for it. That is what I am referring to. If you expect to discuss a doctrine, without making Ad Hominem statements, and generalizing to vagueness, then what is the point of your posting here? It would be the same as others.

I have just showed the actual historic doctrine. The 'immortal soul/spiriut' stuff was Greek/Babylonyish/Egyptian rhetoric that crept its way in, by debate. Satan won a point at a time, and as each minor point was accepted, more material was allowed to come in, based upon the first seed of doubt.

"Soul Liberty" (allowing freedom in worship to God according to one's conscience, only goes so far). You and I are 'free' to believe what we will, but that doesn't mean that God accepts the error in that is believed. Consider the example of Cain (Genesis 3). Consider Nadab and Abihu (Lev. 10). King David (Ark incident), etc. In fact, false belief is very destructive, not merely to the individual, but also to others around them (see Eve, and destruction of Adam). That first error in belief, caused everything you see around you that is wrong.

so I would agree to disagree.

I do not believe in that. It's a cop-out. An unwillingness to actually address the issue. In fact, I see it as cowardice, indolence, laziness, hand-waving, piffling, etc.

We are all heterodox at some point. God bless![

I do not believe in the "God" you believe in. I cannot accept that 'blessing'.

Unfortunately, 'immortal soul/spirit' theology is not 'heterodox' in any way according to scripture. It is plainly heretical, a "doctrine of devils", and dangerous in matters of eternal things.

If you think I am 'heterodox' at some point, this you would have to prove by evidence, for as of now, all you have is your aprioric statement. I do not accept your statement. Show me where any of my belief/practice is heterodoxical according to scripture (then, and only then will I concede such a philosophical point).

I am not in the boat you are, even if you think I am. Some beliefs are just delusional. I do not play along with others illusory mental constructs. I tell them the truth.

 

[Ronnie Vaughan]

I did not call you heterodox. Read the statement again in context. But If you are a Seventh Day Adventist I do believe they are a Heterodox denomination; and your arguments and the video (I watched it) is exactly what I taught as a Seventh Day Adventist Sabbath School teacher. The reason I used 2Tim. 3:16-17 is because it is the scripture that led me to understand that it didn't matter what others said. As an Adventist this is VERY important because it demonstrates that the Bible is all we need. No secondary revelation is needed; no spirit of prophecy, no Ellen G. White....just God's word. That led me to investigate who Ellen G. White really was; and the rest is history. BTW the video revealed your Adventism with just a little bit of research. And if your aren't, you sure do spend a lot of time linking to their sites. I believe it is insincere to be on a Baptist site seeking debates when you are not even a Baptist. I am done with this conversation. It was over for me in 1995 when I spent an afternoon with Jack Sequeira at his 16th St church (Mid Atlantic Conference) at the request of my Adventist pastor Lou Badillo who was unhappy with my move to Evangelical Christianity. And if we don't worship the same God, you really are on the wrong board (Jack would very much so disagree with you).

 

[Alofa Atu]

Life:

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.​

Death:

Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.​

The sentence is passed upon the whole being - man (of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life ... man became a living soul).

God even explains:

Gen 3:17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

Gen 3:18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;

Gen 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.​

The word "body" is not used here. It says "thou" (pronoun), speaking of the previous noun, "man", the "living soul". Notice, "all the days of thy life". It doesn't say all the days of thy 'earthly existence', as if somehow there was another 'existence of life' in death.

To say that sentence of "surely die" (death) is passed upon 'dust' is silly. Without the "breath of life [of God]" the "dust" was not before 'alive' ("living"). It is "man", that "living soul", would die in the day he ate of the fruit forbidden him. God, even removed Adam from the "tree of life", and placed "cherubims" there to guard the way to it (Gen. 3:24).

Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:​

Without the "tree of life", the "man", the "living soul" could not "live for ever". Thus the reason why God placed the guard. God was not concerned with 'immortal dust'. God was concerned with immortal sinners, immortal 'living souls'.

 

[Alofa Atu]

I spent an afternoon with Jack Sequeira

J.S. is a heretic, an actual non-Seventh-day Adventist (a tare among the wheat, a wolf among the sheep) in belief/practice (even if he carries the name, is on church books, which is irrelevant,"For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel"). - https://ia802906.us.archive.org/22/items/doctrine-sanctuary-vance-ferrell-the-errors-of-jack-sequeira-and-desmond-ford-on-the-sanctuary/Doctrine - Sanctuary - Vance Ferrell - The Errors Of Jack Sequeira And Desmond Ford On The Sanctuary.pdf

It would be like spending time with Des. Ford, D.M. Canright (in his apostasy), Walter Rea, Dale Ratzlaff, etc, etc yea, even, the devil himself. Your "Pastor" was a foolish man.

 

[Ronnie Vaughan]

Ahh yes the sanctuary doctrine....the heretical doctrine that teaches that Jesus Christ is in the Heavenly Sanctuary going over our WORKS (just no) to see if we are WORTHY (not) of our salvation....Ummmm, "It is finished" according to my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. The good ole saving face doctrine to sweep the great disappointment under the rug. Or should I say the great false prophecy.