Restrictions on tongues

[SavedByGrace]

The people there spoke a common language.

that was taught to them by God the Holy Spirit! This IS a Miracle from the Lord, and yet there are those who scorn at this!

 

[Yeshua1]

I was recently gifted Charismatic Gift of Tongues by Ronald E. Baxter. I have found it a very insightful book. In chapter 3, Baxter writes about the restrictions Paul places on tongues when he writes to the church at Corinth. He presents one point in a way in which I had not thought about with the same degree of specificity that he achieves. (All below by Ronald E. Baxter, pp. 34-35.)

C. TONGUES MUST BE INTERPRETED

Paul’s argument on this point is particularly devastating. Notice these statements from 1 Corinthians 14:5.

I would that ye all spake with tongues but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

...He wants them to be able to speak in tongues, but only if they themselves can interpret. Only then will tongues have profit for the entire assembly...the apostle writes his coup de grâce on the matter. Note the following, “Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret” (1 Cor 14:13). Do you see that in this verse he effectively neutralizes tongues in the church? What is the sense of speaking of a matter twice -- once in an unknown language, and once in an interpretation -- when a single delivery in simple understandable speech will do?...Eventually one would be bound to say, “Why give the foreign language portion at all? I may as well simply give the interpretation to begin with, so that the people may understand and be edified.”

[Note: I am not sure what is wrong, but BB is not allowing me to create this thread without adding a poll. In order to beat the system and create the thread, I have just added a question of whether or not you agree with Baxter's premise above.]

Think that the tongues being exercised in the early church were all human languages not learnt/known by speaker, and that God had someone who knew that language planted to translate it!

 

[rlvaughn]

that was taught to them by God the Holy Spirit! This IS a Miracle from the Lord, and yet there are those who scorn at this!

So are suggesting that the Jews who were not Christ's disciples, but present for Pentecost -- not the 120 mentioned in chapter 1 -- are also speaking in tongues? There is no mention of that in Acts 2.

 

[SavedByGrace]

So are suggesting that the Jews who were not Christ's disciples, but present for Pentecost -- not the 120 mentioned in chapter 1 -- are also speaking in tongues? There is no mention of that in Acts 2.

whoever the Holy Spirit gave this Gift to, had the ability to speak in languages that they never learned. there is zero Bible evidence to even hint that God does not do this today! what do you think Paul means in 1 Cor. 14:39? Therefore, brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak with tongues

 

[SavedByGrace]

Think that the tongues being exercised in the early church were all human languages not learnt/known by speaker, and that God had someone who knew that language planted to translate it!

why only the early Church?

 

[rlvaughn]

whoever the Holy Spirit gave this Gift to, had the ability to speak in languages that they never learned. there is zero Bible evidence to even hint that God does not do this today! what do you think Paul means in 1 Cor. 14:39? Therefore, brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak with tongues

Speaking vaguely of "whoever the Holy Spirit gave this Gift to" is not Bible evidence that he gave the gift to those who were not disciples. In fact, the text of Acts 2 specifically says that they (the 120) were filled with the Holy Ghost and they (the 120) spoke with other tongues (verse 4). Others present did not do so, and we cannot claim they did if we take the text of the Bible as our authority.

If you take Paul as the authority in 1 Corinthians 14:39, then take him as the authority in the entire context (chapter 12-14). He did not blanketly forbid to speak in tongues, but he did forbid them to do so under certain circumstances. It should be done unto edification (14:5, 26), with interpretation (14:5, 13, 28), without confusion (14:23, 26-33), and never without love (13:1). Paul wrote, "If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord" (v. 37).

 

[SavedByGrace]

Speaking vaguely of "whoever the Holy Spirit gave this Gift to" is not Bible evidence that he gave the gift to those who were not disciples.

The good old KJV has added the word "disciples"! The NASB has the Greek right, "At this time Peter stood up in the midst of the brethren (a gathering of about one hundred and twenty persons was there together), and said" The Greek word for "disciple" is "μαθητὴς", however in Acts 1:15 it is, "ἀδελφῶν", "brethren" being the best translation.

 

[Yeshua1]

why only the early Church?

not needed for today, as we have the completed revelation of God now!

 

[SavedByGrace]

not needed for today, as we have the completed revelation of God now!

really? is this your authority or do you have a chapter and verse from the Bible? It amazes me how the Reformed/Calvinists rewrite what the Bible says, like on Gifts and Miracles of the Holy Spirit, as they do on the Death of Jesus Christ, etc. I know not of a single verse in the NT that says that God cannot, or, does not do miracles today, or use His children to speak to others with languages they have never learned. I have a very good friend, who did some mission work in the Middle East, and during a radio interview, was asked some questions in Arabic, to his astonishment, and those with him, he answered in Arabic, having never learned the language! God used him to convey the Gospel Message, and gave him a language that he never learned! This is our Great God, Who has NO limits, except those that are there by some in the Church!

 

[37818]

The good old KJV has added the word "disciples"! The NASB has the Greek right, "At this time Peter stood up in the midst of the brethren (a gathering of about one hundred and twenty persons was there together), and said" The Greek word for "disciple" is "μαθητὴς", however in Acts 1:15 it is, "ἀδελφῶν", "brethren" being the best translation.

A very small minority of the Greek manuscripts [3%], of inferior quality, read ‘brothers’ for ‘disciples’ (as in NIV, NASB, LB, TEV, etc.). The original Eleven are now called apostles (vs. 2), and the 120 who were there are called disciples.

 

[SavedByGrace]

Nestle-Aland 28; UBS 5; WH "ἀδελφῶν". ἀδελφῶν with אABC, which are the main Greek mss. So it is evident that Pickering does not know what he is on about!

 

[37818]

Nestle-Aland 28; UBS 5; WH "ἀδελφῶν". ἀδελφῶν with אABC, which are the main Greek mss. So it is evident that Pickering does not know what he is on about!

You do not know.
From Dr Pickering's f35 Greek NT:
μαθητων f35 D [97%] HF,RP,OC,TR,CP || αδελφων א,A,B,C [3%] NU

 

[SavedByGrace]

"Brothers", is also the reading of the Latin Vulgate; The Coptic Sahidic and Thebaic. So, what is the "evidence" of Pickering?

 

[rlvaughn]

The good old KJV has added the word "disciples"! The NASB has the Greek right, "At this time Peter stood up in the midst of the brethren (a gathering of about one hundred and twenty persons was there together), and said" The Greek word for "disciple" is "μαθητὴς", however in Acts 1:15 it is, "ἀδελφῶν", "brethren" being the best translation.

This is actually a textual issue rather than a translation issue:

NA28
1:15 καὶ ἐν ταῖς ἡμέραις ταύταις ἀναστὰς Πέτρος ἐν μέσῳ τῶν ἀδελφῶν εἶπεν {ἦν τε ὄχλος ὀνομάτων ἐπὶ τὸ αὐτὸ ὡσεὶ ἑκατὸν εἴκοσι}
Stephanus 1550
1:15 και εν ταις ημεραις ταυταις αναστας πετρος εν μεσω των μαθητων ειπεν ην τε οχλος ονοματων επι το αυτο ως εκατον εικοσιν

None of that changes the fact that it was the 120 disciples/brethren who spoke in tongues and not all the other Jews present at Pentecost.

 

[SavedByGrace]

You do not know.
From Dr Pickering's f35 Greek NT:
μαθητων f35 D [97%] HF,RP,OC,TR,CP || αδελφων א,A,B,C [3%] NU

forget his %, this means NOTHING! The older Greek mss, and in this case, the main mss, read "brethern". Which is also adopted in the main critical Greek NTs as I have already given. Pickering, like Robinson and Pierpont, are hung up on the Byzantine text being the best! I have shown this before, that their conclusions are faulty, as are those who argue for the KJVO!

 

[SavedByGrace]

This is actually a textual issue rather than a translation issue:

NA28
1:15 καὶ ἐν ταῖς ἡμέραις ταύταις ἀναστὰς Πέτρος ἐν μέσῳ τῶν ἀδελφῶν εἶπεν {ἦν τε ὄχλος ὀνομάτων ἐπὶ τὸ αὐτὸ ὡσεὶ ἑκατὸν εἴκοσι}
Stephanus 1550
1:15 και εν ταις ημεραις ταυταις αναστας πετρος εν μεσω των μαθητων ειπεν ην τε οχλος ονοματων επι το αυτο ως εκατον εικοσιν

None of that changes the fact that it was the 120 disciples/brethren who spoke in tongues and not all the other Jews present at Pentecost.

I am well aware of this. The much stronger textual evidence says "brethern", while the later (5th/6th cent), read "disciples".

 

[Yeshua1]

really? is this your authority or do you have a chapter and verse from the Bible? It amazes me how the Reformed/Calvinists rewrite what the Bible says, like on Gifts and Miracles of the Holy Spirit, as they do on the Death of Jesus Christ, etc. I know not of a single verse in the NT that says that God cannot, or, does not do miracles today, or use His children to speak to others with languages they have never learned. I have a very good friend, who did some mission work in the Middle East, and during a radio interview, was asked some questions in Arabic, to his astonishment, and those with him, he answered in Arabic, having never learned the language! God used him to convey the Gospel Message, and gave him a language that he never learned! This is our Great God, Who has NO limits, except those that are there by some in the Church!

The question is not can the Lord still do miracles and healings and give real tongues as in Acts today, but are they the norm today, and are their additional revelations being given to so called Apostles and prophets today?

 

[rlvaughn]

I am well aware of this. The much stronger textual evidence says "brethern", while the later (5th/6th cent), read "disciples".

Well, I was going by what you said earlier, that "The good old KJV has added the word 'disciples'" and "'brethren' being the best translation."

But, again, does either or these words do anything to change the matter under discussion, of who spoke in tongues on the day of Pentecost?

 

[SavedByGrace]

Apostles and prophets

do not exist today, execpt in the form of pseudo. Your reasoning that because it is not the "norm" today, that it is therefore questionable, is moot. Don't forget that at one time Jesus could not work miracles, because of the hardness of the peoples hearts! Matthew 13:58, "And he did not do many mighty works there, because of their unbelief". This has been the case throught the Church history, and even more so today, as we can see here on BB!

 

[SavedByGrace]

Well, I was going by what you said earlier, that "The good old KJV has added the word 'disciples'" and "'brethren' being the best translation."

But, again, does either or these words do anything to change the matter under discussion, of who spoke in tongues on the day of Pentecost?

Question is brother, do you think that our Great God is unable to repeat what He did at Pentecost? Is His hand shortened? I do know that there are many false "miracles", including tongues, like that of the Copelands, Hagens, Celluro, Dollar, Jakes, etc, etc. But, God is much Greater than any of these false teaches, and still does His Works!