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Featured A Tale of Two Calvinisms

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by JonC, Dec 6, 2020.

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  1. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    No. And I'll go one better to my no - if you are unaware of any Calvinists acting in a un-Christian manner then I will not be the one to call them to your attention. That would be gossip, but more than that it would be to prop up a few people who are best ignored.
     
    #81 JonC, Dec 10, 2020
  2. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    The Gospel at its very heart is Pauline Justification, on how lost sinners can be reconciled back to Holy God!
     
    #82 Yeshua1, Dec 10, 2020
  3. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    No. Not "cause". That is my point. I do not arrive at TULIP via Calvinistic philosophy. I do not believe that God decreed Adam to sin. That said, I do believe that Adam's sin was predestined (by God's foreknowledge), and ordained (via God's act of creation) and a part of God's plan.
     
    #83 JonC, Dec 10, 2020
  4. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I would hope that the gospel is at the very heart of all of our doctrines. But that does not make all of our doctrines the gospel itself.
     
    #84 JonC, Dec 10, 2020
  5. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Again, are you referring to how at times our critics call us "smug and arrogant"
     
    #85 Yeshua1, Dec 10, 2020
  6. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Just a brief aside, when God places an individual into Christ, He is transferring the individual from the domain of darkness into the kingdom of His Beloved Son. (Colossians 1:13-14) Please carry on with distinctions between Kingdom, and Christ... :)
     
    #86 Van, Dec 10, 2020
  7. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Does God , per your view, elects us unto salvation based upon foreknowledge or that He determines and causes that to occur?
     
    #87 Yeshua1, Dec 10, 2020
  8. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Justification itself is what made a reformation!
     
    #88 Yeshua1, Dec 10, 2020
  9. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    I believe God 'provoked' Satan to jealousy by inserting Adam into the garden of Eden, like he did the jews:

    21 They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; They have provoked me to anger with their vanities: And I will move them to jealousy with those that are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation. Dt 32
     
    #89 kyredneck, Dec 10, 2020
  10. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Scripture does not give me enough to agree or disagree, but it makes sense. If so, perhaps Satan's fall is related to a desire to be like God towards mankind.
     
    #90 JonC, Dec 10, 2020
  11. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    You are presenting an anthropomorphic distinction that cannot be answered. Man cannot know the mind of God. His ways are not our ways, His thoughts are not our thoughts. We cannot divide up attributes of God and then determine orders to God's "reasoning" or "choosing" because these would not apply to an immutable and omniscient God.
     
    #91 JonC, Dec 10, 2020
  12. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Does God choose us before we choose Him?
     
    #92 Yeshua1, Dec 10, 2020
  13. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Just how do you think God "chooses"?
     
    #93 JonC, Dec 10, 2020
  14. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Based upon His own good will and pleasure!
     
    #94 Yeshua1, Dec 10, 2020
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  15. church mouse guy

    church mouse guy Well-Known Member
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    Predestined to me means that God set it up that way. God just allows some things. He allows us to talk here but He did not necessarily decide that we would be doing so before the universe was created.

    I could not be a Calvinists because I could never win an election. Is a hyper-Calvinist someone who believes that some people are made for hell?
     
    #95 church mouse guy, Dec 10, 2020
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  16. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Per the Bible, we ALL are bound for hell unless God intervenes!
     
    #96 Yeshua1, Dec 10, 2020
  17. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I think that we agree on a lot, and where we disagree is philosophical on this topic.

    I think that we agree that all things will unfold as God knows they will unfold. Where I see God "setting it up" that way is that knowing would would occur God actively created everything (God at least ordained everything to occur as it would, not that it should occur that way, but that it would and in so doing was a part of God's predetermined plan). Where I differ from Calvinism is in "getting there".

    So I would say that God ultimately caused everything to exist, knowing what would occur, but God did not cause the choices that people make (even though these choices are themselves predetermined).
     
    #97 JonC, Dec 10, 2020
  18. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    So those chosen from the foundation of the earth are bound for hell?
     
    #98 JonC, Dec 10, 2020
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  19. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    when born yes, as they still must be born again, not eternal Justification as Hypers hold with!
     
    #99 Yeshua1, Dec 10, 2020
  20. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    It'd be nice if you'd quote "per the Bible" where exactly it specifies HELL we're all bound for.
     
    #100 kyredneck, Dec 10, 2020
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