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Featured Corporate and Individual Election for Salvation

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Van, Dec 12, 2020.

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  1. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    I don't care how sick you are and by the way you are sick if you think your false doctrine of election for Gentiles.is Biblical.
    MB
     
    #81 MB, Dec 15, 2020
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  2. Tsalagi

    Tsalagi Member

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    "For I know that my Redeemer liveth, and that He shall stand at the latter day upon the earth; And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God, Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me." Job 19:25-27

    "But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered. And many who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake, some to everlasting life, but others to shame and everlasting contempt." Daniel 12:1-2
     
    #82 Tsalagi, Dec 15, 2020
  3. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    All who were saved by God in the OT was due to the coming messiah, as they looked forward to the Cross, while we now loop back!
     
    #83 Yeshua1, Dec 15, 2020
  4. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    Old testament saints were set aside in Paradise they did not go to heaven. Like David in hell they waited for Christ to come and set the captives free. If men were saved before Christ then Christ did not have to die. There is no forgiveness of sin with out the Blood of Christ. It seems you believe men were saved with out that Blood nullifying the sacrifice of the Son of God.
     
    #84 MB, Dec 15, 2020
  5. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    Got scripture to back that up? Oh yeah I forgot you're a philosopher.
    MB
     
    #85 MB, Dec 15, 2020
  6. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Hebrews 11:1-3,6,13-16,39-40 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. For by it the people of old received their commendation. By faith we understand that the universe was created by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things that are visible.

    And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.

    These all died in faith, not having received the things promised, but having seen them and greeted them from afar, and having acknowledged that they were strangers and exiles on the earth. For people who speak thus make it clear that they are seeking a homeland. If they had been thinking of that land from which they had gone out, they would have had opportunity to return. But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one.

    Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared for them a city. And all these, though commended through their faith, did not receive what was promised, since God had provided something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect.

    Hebrews 12:1-2
    Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.
     
    #86 AustinC, Dec 15, 2020
  7. Tsalagi

    Tsalagi Member

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    It seems you think that Abraham could be the "friend of God" (2 Chronicles 20:7; Isaiah 41:8; James 2:23) and David could be a "man after God's own heart" (1 Sam 13:14; Acts 13:22) and that of men born of woman there was none greater than John the Baptist (Matthew 11:11, Luke 7:28) without any of them being saved. May I suggest the benefits of a study of the basis for Old Testament salvation, beginning with Hebrews 11:6 and 10.
     
    #87 Tsalagi, Dec 15, 2020
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  8. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Behold the thread hi-jack by MB.
    Returning to topic:

    First lets define “corporate” election as God making a choice to deal with a group of people according to His purpose. Thus, whoever is “in the corporate sphere” of His choice is chosen, and therefore anyone who enters that sphere becomes chosen or elect. The concept does not include a specific way to enter that sphere, so it is consistent with the Arminian idea that when a person sincerely puts their trust in Christ, they enter that sphere and become “elect” but corporate election does not preclude denial of human choice as the means of entry. The means must be an additional stipulation.

    Secondly, it is a false dichotomy to say if God does sometimes choose to deal with a group for some purpose, that means He does not ever choose individuals for some related purpose. Corporate election does not require the denial of individual election, and individual election does not require the denial of corporate election.

    As we wade into the subject of corporate election, our first question might be, do we see in the Bible the notion of corporate election or individual election. The answer is both. As Dr. Daniel B. Wallace wrote, “Individual and corporate perspectives are intertwined in Paul.”

    Next, to paraphrase Dr. Wallace, “whether individual or corporate election is in view, the election is initiated by God and effected by God. Those who are chosen become what they were chosen for.” Judas was chosen to fulfill the betrayer prophecy, and that is what he became.

    Next can there be corporate election without first being individual election? The answer to this depends on how one understands the question. For example Abraham was chosen and then within his descendants the line leading to Christ was promised, the world being blessed through Abraham’s seed. So this would be an example of an individual election resulting in a corporate election. Therefore the OT saints were individually chosen as Abraham was, which is on the basis of faith. But they had to wait (in Abraham's bosom) until Christ died to be made perfect. Thus they "gained approval" by faith, as Hebrews 11 says, but were not at that time transferred into Christ because Christ had not yet sacrificed Himself to provide the propitiation or means of salvation.

    On the other hand God might choose to order the destruction of a people who are in the way of God’s people from fulfilling His purpose. So the answer is there can be corporate elections that are the consequence of individual elections, and there can be corporate elections not as a consequence of an election of some individual from the group.

    Which brings us to the crux of the matter, are we chosen corporately to salvation or individually to salvation? Dr. Wallace again correctly pointed out that Romans 8:33 clearly addresses charges being brought against individuals, saying if they are elect, no charge can be brought. Why not? Because they were chosen by God to salvation, and no plan of God can be thwarted. If all has been forgiven by God, no lesser entity can bring any charge. If you have a Presidential pardon, no state governor can charge you with the pardoned crime. Secondly, and this point was definitely not made by Dr. Wallace, if a person was chosen to salvation, they would be elect, but if they had not received forgiveness, then a charge could be brought against them. Thus this verse requires that election to salvation and that salvation go hand in hand with no delay between the two.

    And if as required by Romans 8:33, there is no delay, when are we chosen? Since many verses clearly teach before we were chosen, we were sinners; our individual election to salvation has to occur during our physical lifetime. In 1 Corinthians 1:26-30 we see God chose what the world saw as weak and foolish, requiring those chosen to be in and therefore known by the world. Second Thessalonians 2:13 says we are chosen through belief in the truth, requiring that we were alive and believing in Jesus when we were chosen. 1 Peter 2:9-10 says once we were not a people but now we are a people, requiring that we lived before becoming part of God’s chosen people, and also once we had not received mercy but now we have received mercy, again requiring that we lived without receiving mercy, and then we received mercy. Lastly we have God choosing the poor to the world, again requiring people being chosen while living and known to the world. James 2:5.

    In summary, when God chose Christ to be His Redeemer, that was an individual election that resulted in a corporate election, everyone subsequently redeemed was corporately chosen in Him, as the target group of His redemption plan, thus He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, but we enter that corporate sphere when God individually credits our faith as righteousness and places us spiritually in Christ, thus the sanctification by the Spirit, 2 Thessalonians 2:13 is our being individually set apart in Christ which was our individual election to salvation.
     
    #88 Van, Dec 16, 2020
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  9. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    There was no Salvation as we know it, if there had been Jesus would not have died for our sins. Your claim places men in heaven with there sins still attached. This is impossible animal sacrifice did not cleanse men of there sins.. Looking forward to Christ did not cleanse there sins. What did they do with there sins?Not to mention the Jews believed that the messiah would free them from Roman rule.
    Hebrews 11:6-10 does not say Noah was saved. All it says is that he had faith. The Bible says no man comes to the Father except by Jesus Christ. Noah did not have Christ he didn't even know His name or that He is the Son of God.
    MB
     
    #89 MB, Dec 16, 2020
  10. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    So none were saved in the OT then?
     
    #90 Yeshua1, Dec 16, 2020
  11. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    All of the OT saved were part of Abraham Bosom, that Jesus too back to Heaven when he ascended
     
    #91 Yeshua1, Dec 16, 2020
  12. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    Faith is the fruit of having been Chosen from the beginning . 2 Thess 2:13
     
    #92 Brightfame52, Dec 25, 2020
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  13. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    They could not be until they heard the gospel and believed in Christ. They went to paradise and waited to hear the gospel from Christ Him Self Abraham bosom or paradise was in hell

    Psa 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
    Psa 16:11 Thou wilt shew me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore.

    When Christ set the captives free those who believed His gospel after hearing it then and only then were there sins forgiven and they went to be with the Lord. There is no Salvation apart from Christ.
    MB
     
    #93 MB, Dec 26, 2020
  14. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    #94 MB, Dec 26, 2020
  15. Tsalagi

    Tsalagi Member

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    The Bible does not actually teach that Christ "set the captives free" from prison, or that He preached to the dead before transferring them out of a literal paradise called Abraham's bosom, etc. This common belief is what I think of as a mashup of misunderstandings. I think everyone would affirm your final statement (John 14:6, Acts 4:12, 1 Timothy 2:5), but that truth does not lend credence to the imaginary scenario you describe above.
     
    #95 Tsalagi, Dec 26, 2020
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  16. Tsalagi

    Tsalagi Member

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    Who says OT saints are "in heaven"? Certainly not me. They'll get there, of course, but not until something over a thousand years from now.

    You might find the following Scriptures illuminating on this topic: 2 Samuel 12:13; Psalm 32:5; Psalm 51:1-19; Psalm 103:12; Isaiah 38:17; Isaiah 43:25.

    God is not limited to chronological time like we are, and He can credit righteousness (based on the future work of Christ) to OT men of faith (Genesis 6:9, Hebrews 11:7) who were looking for God's future salvation like Abraham did (Genesis 15:6, Hebrews 11:9-10).
     
    #96 Tsalagi, Dec 26, 2020
  17. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    Until I read in scripture what you claim. I will go with what I believe. I still say if men could not have been saved before Christ and His sacrifice. After the cross he went to Paradise with the thief that hung next to Him.. He was present with Christ until Christ died and descended to set the captives free. The thief was with Christ in Paradise.
    Psa 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
    Psa 16:11 Thou wilt shew me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore.
    David wrote this. He knew where he was going when he died. Did he lie.
    Paul wrote;
    Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
    Eph 4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
    Eph 4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
    As Far as study I have studied all scripture extensively for over 60 years. If you will but looked these verses over carefully by all means using your bible reference you will see that I'm right. If you still believe I'm wrong then please by all means tell me who these captives were.
    MB
     
    #97 MB, Dec 26, 2020
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2020
  18. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    Jn 14 :6 proves men could not be saved until the blood of Christ was shed
    The same with Acts 4:12 all your verses say men cannot be saved with out Christ and the OT saints did not have Jesus Christ they didn't even know He was to come and shed His blood for the whole world. The Jews were looking to be delivered from there sufferings under Roman rule. Even Barabbis wanted Him to be the King right there and then and free Israel
    MB
     
    #98 MB, Dec 26, 2020
  19. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    A person cannot have faith, unless God has authored it and finished it.
    A person is saved by grace, through faith, which is a gift from God.
    Hebrews 11 establishes the legacy of the faith.
    Certainly God was not hampered by time so that He could not redeem his chosen until He died as a propitiation for the sins of the chosen.
    Having been chosen before the foundation of the world, the elect are secure in their Father's hand.
     
    #99 AustinC, Dec 26, 2020
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  20. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    Abraham heard the Gospel and believed in Christ. For it is written Gal 3:8

    And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed

    And Jesus said of Abraham this Jn 8:56

    56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad
     
    #100 Brightfame52, Dec 27, 2020
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