Corporate and Individual Election for Salvation

[MB]

Abraham heard the Gospel and believed in Christ. For it is written Gal 3:8

And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed

And Jesus said of Abraham this Jn 8:56

56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad

Of course Abraham heard the gospel while he was in paradise not while he was alive in the flesh.
MB

 

[AustinC]

Of course Abraham heard the gospel while he was in paradise not while he was alive in the flesh.
MB

You are adding your bias to the interpretation with no biblical evidence to support it.

 

[Yeshua1]

Of course Abraham heard the gospel while he was in paradise not while he was alive in the flesh.
MB

So he had a second chance after death?

 

[MB]

So he had a second chance after death?

Wrong. His Salvation was set aside until heard the gospel just like David was Ps 16 because of His faith.He could not be saved with out the blood of Christ.
MB

 

[Yeshua1]

Wrong. His Salvation was set aside until heard the gospel just like David was Ps 16 because of His faith.He could not be saved with out the blood of Christ.
MB

He heard that while alive though!

 

[MB]

He heard that while alive though!

From Where? There was no Gospel to hear. He didn't even have the books of Moses. He even lived before Moses received the Law. Of course you can prove it. hehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehhe. You are very funny
MB

 

[Yeshua1]

From Where? There was no Gospel to hear. He didn't even have the books of Moses. He even lived before Moses received the Law. Of course you can prove it. hehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehhe. You are very funny
MB

Abraham knew that God would provide the sacrifice of Messiah, see how He did for Abraham son Isaac@

 

[MB]

Abraham knew that God would provide the sacrifice of Messiah, see how He did for Abraham son Isaac@

That is not the gospel. It's the election. I know you think they are the same thing but they aren't. No one is saved with out Jesus and His blood.There simply is no other way
You loose
MB

 

[Yeshua1]

That is not the gospel. It's the election. I know you think they are the same thing but they aren't. No one is saved with out Jesus and His blood.There simply is no other way
You loose
MB

Abraham was justified and saved by God while yet living...

 

[MB]

Abraham was justified and saved by God while yet living...

You keep making false claims you refuse to support with scripture.
MB

 

[AustinC]

God gives His children the gift of faith.

Hebrews 11:8-13
By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to a place that he was to receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. By faith he went to live in the land of promise, as in a foreign land, living in tents with Isaac and Jacob, heirs with him of the same promise. For he was looking forward to the city that has foundations, whose designer and builder is God. By faith Sarah herself received power to conceive, even when she was past the age, since she considered him faithful who had promised. Therefore from one man, and him as good as dead, were born descendants as many as the stars of heaven and as many as the innumerable grains of sand by the seashore. These all died in faith, not having received the things promised, but having seen them and greeted them from afar, and having acknowledged that they were strangers and exiles on the earth.

 

[AustinC]

Genesis 18:17-19
The Lord said, “Shall I hide from Abraham what I am about to do, seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him? For I have chosen him, that he may command his children and his household after him to keep the way of the Lord by doing righteousness and justice, so that the Lord may bring to Abraham what he has promised him.”

 

[Yeshua1]

You keep making false claims you refuse to support with scripture.
MB

Romans 4:1-5 Justified while living

 

[Aaron]

First lets define “corporate” election as God making a choice to deal with a group of people according to His purpose. Thus, whoever is “in the corporate sphere” of His choice is chosen, and therefore anyone who enters that sphere becomes chosen or elect. The concept does not include a specific way to enter that sphere, so it is consistent with the Arminian idea that when a person sincerely puts their trust in Christ, they enter that sphere and become “elect” but corporate election does not preclude denial of human choice as the means of entry. The means must be an additional stipulation.

Secondly, it is a false dichotomy to say if God does sometimes choose to deal with a group for some purpose, that means He does not ever choose individuals for some related purpose. Corporate election does not require the denial of individual election, and individual election does not require the denial of corporate election.

As we wade into the subject of corporate election, our first question might be, do we see in the Bible the notion of corporate election or individual election. The answer is both. As Dr. Daniel B. Wallace wrote, “Individual and corporate perspectives are intertwined in Paul.”

Next, to paraphrase Dr. Wallace, “whether individual or corporate election is in view, the election is initiated by God and effected by God. Those who are chosen become what they were chosen for.” Judas was chosen to fulfill the betrayer prophecy, and that is what he became.

Next can there be corporate election without first being individual election? The answer to this depends on how one understands the question. For example Abraham was chosen and then within his descendants the line leading to Christ was promised, the world being blessed through Abraham’s seed. So this would be an example of an individual election resulting in a corporate election. On the other hand God might choose to order the destruction of a people who are in the way of God’s people from fulfilling His purpose. So the answer is there can be corporate elections that are the consequence of individual elections, and there can be corporate elections not as a consequence of an election of some individual from the group.

Which brings us to the crux of the matter, are we chosen corporately to salvation or individually to salvation? Dr. Wallace again correctly pointed out that Romans 8:33 clearly addresses charges being brought against individuals, saying if they are elect, no charge can be brought. Why not? Because they were chosen by God to salvation, and no plan of God can be thwarted. If all has been forgiven by God, no lesser entity can bring any charge. If you have a Presidential pardon, no state governor can charge you with the pardoned crime. Secondly, and this point was definitely not made by Dr. Wallace, if a person was chosen to salvation, they would be elect, but if they had not received forgiveness, then a charge could be brought against them. Thus this verse requires that election to salvation and that salvation go hand in hand with no delay between the two.

And if as required by Romans 8:33, there is no delay, when are we chosen? Since many verses clearly teach before we were chosen, we were sinners; our individual election to salvation has to occur during our physical lifetime. In 1 Corinthians 1:26-30 we see God chose what the world saw as weak and foolish, requiring those chosen to be in and therefore known by the world. Second Thessalonians 2:13 says we are chosen through belief in the truth, requiring that we were alive and believing in Jesus when we were chosen. 1 Peter 2:9-10 says once we were not a people but now we are a people, requiring that we lived before becoming part of God’s chosen people, and also once we had not received mercy but now we have received mercy, again requiring that we lived without receiving mercy, and then we received mercy. Lastly we have God choosing the poor to the world, again requiring people being chosen while living and known to the world. James 2:5.

In summary, when God chose Christ to be His Redeemer, that was an individual election that resulted in a corporate election, everyone subsequently redeemed was corporately chosen in Him, as the target group of His redemption plan, thus He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, but we enter that corporate sphere when God individually credits our faith as righteousness and places us spiritually in Christ, thus the sanctification by the Spirit, 2 Thessalonians 2:13 being our individually set apart in Christ is our individual election to salvation.

Blah blah blah

Fortunately, the Spirit has given us a picture or two of election. I will cite the Ark. There it is, a refuge from the wrath to come, open to all, all invited, but the only to enter are the family chosen by God. They didn't become chosen by entering the Ark. They were chosen, then the Ark was prepared for them, and they entered.

 

[Yeshua1]

Blah blah blah

Fortunately, the Spirit has given us a picture or two of election. I will cite the Ark. There it is, a refuge from the wrath to come, open to all, all invited, but the only to enter are the family chosen by God. They didn't become chosen by entering the Ark. They were chosen, then the Ark was prepared for them, and they entered.

The Holy Spirit called out to all to enter into the Ark of safety, but only the sheep of God heard and came!

 

[Van]

Blah blah blah

Fortunately, the Spirit has given us a picture or two of election. I will cite the Ark. There it is, a refuge from the wrath to come, open to all, all invited, but the only to enter are the family chosen by God. They didn't become chosen by entering the Ark. They were chosen, then the Ark was prepared for them, and they entered.

The purposeful posting of irrelevant smokescreed to hide the truth is sad.

Did anyone say we become chosen by entering the Ark of Christ? Nope. Obfuscation on display.

The Ark of Christ is part of God's redemption plan, from before creation, and was completed when Christ died on the cross.

In summary, when God chose Christ to be His Redeemer, that was an individual election that resulted in a corporate election, everyone subsequently redeemed was corporately chosen in Him, as the target group of His redemption plan, thus He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, but we enter that corporate sphere when God individually credits our faith as righteousness and places us spiritually in Christ, thus the sanctification by the Spirit, 2 Thessalonians 2:13 refers to our being individually set apart in Christ which is the result of God's individual election of us for salvation.

 

[AustinC]

In summary, when God chose Christ to be His Redeemer, that was an individual election that resulted in a corporate election, everyone subsequently redeemed was corporately chosen in Him, as the target group of His redemption plan, thus He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, but we enter that corporate sphere when God individually credits our faith as righteousness and places us spiritually in Christ, thus the sanctification by the Spirit, 2 Thessalonians 2:13 refers to our being individually set apart in Christ which is the result of God's individual election of us for salvation.

Whoa! Do you make Christ a lower being below God? You say "God chose Christ to be His Redeemer" as though Jesus is not God himself.
From eternity past the Godhead chose to Redeem those humans who were chosen before the foundation of the world. Your theories of corporate and individual election are skewed by your false construct about Jesus. I base this upon your theological false statement, which I have placed in bold.

 

[Van]

Whoa! Do you make Christ a lower being below God? You say "God chose Christ to be His Redeemer" as though Jesus is not God himself.
From eternity past the Godhead chose to Redeem those humans who were chosen before the foundation of the world. Your theories of corporate and individual election are skewed by your false construct about Jesus. I base this upon your theological false statement, which I have placed in bold.

One false charge after another is all these deceivers post.
Do you see a quote or a manufactured charge.
Does being the chosen One make Jesus not God? What nonsense!!

Luke 9:35 Then a voice came out of the cloud, saying, “This is My Son, My Chosen One; listen to Him!”

Luke 23:35 And the people stood by, looking on. And even the rulers were sneering at Him, saying, “He saved others; let Him save Himself if this is the Christ of God, His Chosen One.”

1Peter 1:20
For He was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but has appeared in these last times for the sake of you

In summary, when God chose Christ to be His Redeemer, that was an individual election that resulted in a corporate election, everyone subsequently redeemed was corporately chosen in Him, as the target group of His redemption plan, thus He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, but we enter that corporate sphere when God individually credits our faith as righteousness and places us spiritually in Christ, thus the sanctification by the Spirit, 2 Thessalonians 2:13 refers to our being individually set apart in Christ which is the result of God's individual election of us for salvation.

 

[AustinC]

One false charge after another is all these deceivers post.
Do you see a quote or a manufactured charge.
Does being the chosen One make Jesus not God? What nonsense!!

Luke 9:35 Then a voice came out of the cloud, saying, “This is My Son, My Chosen One; listen to Him!”

Luke 23:35 And the people stood by, looking on. And even the rulers were sneering at Him, saying, “He saved others; let Him save Himself if this is the Christ of God, His Chosen One.”

1Peter 1:20
For He was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but has appeared in these last times for the sake of you

In summary, when God chose Christ to be His Redeemer, that was an individual election that resulted in a corporate election, everyone subsequently redeemed was corporately chosen in Him, as the target group of His redemption plan, thus He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, but we enter that corporate sphere when God individually credits our faith as righteousness and places us spiritually in Christ, thus the sanctification by the Spirit, 2 Thessalonians 2:13 refers to our being individually set apart in Christ which is the result of God's individual election of us for salvation.

Very poor job of prooftexting sentences, Van.

Here's a simple question:
Is Jesus God?

God chose Himself to Redeem His elect.

Your entire "corporate" election theory is a figment of your own imagination and unsupported in the Bible.

There is not one verse that states "corporate election."

 

[Van]

Very poor job of prooftexting sentences, Van.
Here's a simple question:
Is Jesus God?
God chose Himself to Redeem His elect.
Your entire "corporate" election theory is a figment of your own imagination and unsupported in the Bible.
There is not one verse that states "corporate election."

Folks, one bogus charge after another is all they post.
The infer by the question "is Jesus God" that I dispute what I proclaim. Deliberate deception to change the subject to me.

Next, they claim Dr. Dan Wallace is wrong, that corporate and individual election is not intertwined in Paul.

As Dr. Daniel B. Wallace wrote, “Individual and corporate perspectives are intertwined in Paul.”

All they have folks is "taint so and Van is rotten for saying so."