Corporate and Individual Election for Salvation

[AustinC]

Folks, one bogus charge after another is all they post.
The infer by the question "is Jesus God" that I dispute what I proclaim. Deliberate deception to change the subject to me.

Next, they claim Dr. Dan Wallace is wrong, that corporate and individual election is not intertwined in Paul.

All they have folks is "taint so and Van is rotten for saying so."

Folks, one deflection after another is all van posts. He says God chose the Christ individually, then he says all elect are corporate, except Christ. Yet, there is zero scripture that even implies what van claims.

Deliberate deception on his part.

Now watch how he provides no biblical support and instead focuses on my character.

 

[Aaron]

Did anyone say we become chosen by entering the Ark of Christ? Nope.

Sure they did, and it was you in the first paragraph of the first post.

Thus, whoever is “in the corporate sphere” of His choice is chosen, and therefore anyone who enters that sphere becomes chosen or elect. The concept does not include a specific way to enter that sphere, so it is consistent with the Arminian idea that when a person sincerely puts their trust in Christ, they enter that sphere and become “elect”​

That's your whole point in all the verbage, wresting the Scriptures to say that we elect ourselves. But God's picture book is hard to argue with, isn't it?

 

[Van]

Sure they did, and it was you in the first paragraph of the first post.

Thus, whoever is “in the corporate sphere” of His choice is chosen, and therefore anyone who enters that sphere becomes chosen or elect. The concept does not include a specific way to enter that sphere, so it is consistent with the Arminian idea that when a person sincerely puts their trust in Christ, they enter that sphere and become “elect”​

That's your whole point in all the verbiage, wresting the Scriptures to say that we elect ourselves. But God's picture book is hard to argue with, isn't it?

All they have is wholesale falsehoods, piled one on top of another.

They didn't become chosen by entering the Ark.

anyone who enters that sphere becomes chosen or elect.

So the issue is did I say "how" one enters that sphere. God places those of His choosing into Christ.

All you need to do folks is read the first paragraph (and not the edited rendition calculated to present falsehood) .

First lets define “corporate” election as God making a choice to deal with a group of people according to His purpose. Thus, whoever is “in the corporate sphere” of His choice is chosen, and therefore anyone who enters that sphere becomes chosen or elect. The concept does not include a specific way to enter that sphere, so it is consistent with the Arminian idea that when a person sincerely puts their trust in Christ, they enter that sphere and become “elect” but corporate election does not preclude denial of human choice as the means of entry. The means must be an additional stipulation.

The portion in red in the above paragraph was deleted to create the impression I said " chosen by entering the Ark" when I said those entering become chosen.

To repeat, I said we are individually chosen for salvation by God placing us into Christ (the sanctification by the Spirit) on the basis of crediting our faith as righteousness.

None of these Calvinist posters of falsehood will address the actual biblical position as stated above. They post non-stop twaddle.

 

[Aaron]

The portion in red in the above paragraph was deleted to create the impression I said " chosen by entering the Ark" when I said those entering become chosen.

There's no difference. God draws a circle, and we enter. The very fact that you insist your paradigm may allow two mutually exclusive means of entry renders it false and changes nothing about what you are really saying.

You're trying to make the case for one electing himself by describing election as something passive. We do something and become elect instead of the truth, which is we are elect by God's grace and do something by that same grace.

 

[Van]

There's no difference. God draws a circle, and we enter. The very fact that you insist your paradigm may allow two mutually exclusive means of entry renders it false and changes nothing about what you are really saying.

You're trying to make the case for one electing himself by describing election as something passive. We do something and become elect instead of the truth, which is we are elect by God's grace and do something by that same grace.

One falsehood after another, deliberately derailing actual discussion of biblical doctrine.
1) Individual election is not precluded by corporate election.
2) We enter by means of God transferring us into Christ.
3) Election is not passive.
4) We are elect by God's choice, not our own.

Calvinism is defended by those that post one falsehood after another, hiding the fiction of Calvinism under a pile of dung.

Here is the biblical truth, which these falsehood posters are trying to bury:

To repeat, I said we are individually chosen for salvation by God placing us into Christ (the sanctification by the Spirit) on the basis of crediting our faith as righteousness.

 

[AustinC]

Here is the biblical truth, which these falsehood posters are trying to bury:

To repeat, I said we are individually chosen for salvation by God placing us into Christ (the sanctification by the Spirit) on the basis of crediting our faith as righteousness.

You add your works at the end of your statement, saying "our faith" is declared righteous by God. Yet the Bible clearly tells us that it is God's faith that He gifts to us which He declares righteous.

You twist and turn and do everything to get us to miss that critical heresy you are declaring. I shall continue to point out your legalism, which denies God the glory due His name.

 

[Aaron]

One falsehood after another, deliberately derailing actual discussion of biblical doctrine.
1) Individual election is not precluded by corporate election.
2) We enter by means of God transferring us into Christ.
3) Election is not passive.
4) We are elect by God's choice, not our own.

Calvinism is defended by those that post one falsehood after another, hiding the fiction of Calvinism under a pile of dung.

Here is the biblical truth, which these falsehood posters are trying to bury:

To repeat, I said we are individually chosen for salvation by God placing us into Christ (the sanctification by the Spirit) on the basis of crediting our faith as righteousness.

...aaaand...you counter by calling names while merely repeating your arbitrary and contradictory postulations.

It is hard to kick against the pricks.

 

[Van]

You add your works at the end of your statement, saying "our faith" is declared righteous by God. Yet the Bible clearly tells us that it is God's faith that He gifts to us which He declares righteous.

You twist and turn and do everything to get us to miss that critical heresy you are declaring. I shall continue to point out your legalism, which denies God the glory due His name.

Yet another you, you, you post running from the bible into the fallacy of against the man argumentation.
The gift of faith is a fiction with absolutely no scriptural support.
Answer this (and no answer will be provided) how could we be chosen through faith in the truth, to be given faith in the truth.

 

[Van]

...aaaand...you counter by calling names while merely repeating your arbitrary and contradictory postulations.
It is hard to kick against the pricks.

Here is the biblical truth, which these falsehood posters are trying to bury:

To repeat, I said we are individually chosen for salvation by God placing us into Christ (the sanctification by the Spirit) on the basis of crediting our faith as righteousness.

1) Individual election is not precluded by corporate election.
2) We enter by means of God transferring us into Christ.
3) Election is not passive.
4) We are elect by God's choice, not our own.

 

[Aaron]

...therefore anyone who enters that sphere becomes chosen or elect. The concept does not include a specific way to enter that sphere, so it is consistent with the Arminian idea that when a person sincerely puts their trust in Christ, they enter that sphere and become “elect” ...

No matter how you slice it, this is your real point.

 

[Aaron]

Answer this (and no answer will be provided) how could we be chosen through faith in the truth, to be given faith in the truth.

Who says that? No one is chosen by faith.

 

[Van]

No matter how you slice it, this is your real point.

You can slice and dice truth, but this is the real point:

Here is the biblical truth, which these falsehood posters are trying to bury:

To repeat, I said we are individually chosen for salvation by God placing us into Christ (the sanctification by the Spirit) on the basis of crediting our faith as righteousness.

1) Individual election is not precluded by corporate election.
2) We enter by means of God transferring us into Christ.
3) Election is not passive.
4) We are elect by God's choice, not our own.

 

[Van]

Who says that? No one is chosen by faith.

2 Thessalonians 2:13 has been specifically referenced time and again. Here they deny scripture, for everyone chosen is chosen by reason of God crediting their faith as righteousness.

 

[AustinC]

2 Thessalonians 2:13 has been specifically referenced time and again. Here they deny scripture, for everyone chosen is chosen by reason of God crediting their faith as righteousness.

2 Thessalonians 2:13-14
But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the first fruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth. To this he called you through our gospel, so that you may obtain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Notice, a human generating their own faith and thus convincing God to credit them election is NEVER taught in the Bible. Such a theology is a teaching coming from the figment of your own mind, not from God in His word.

 

[AustinC]

Van wrote:
First lets define “corporate” election as God making a choice to deal with a group of people according to His purpose. Thus, whoever is “in the corporate sphere” of His choice is chosen, and therefore anyone who enters that sphere becomes chosen or elect. The concept does not include a specific way to enter that sphere, so it is consistent with the Arminian idea that when a person sincerely puts their trust in Christ, they enter that sphere and become “elect” but corporate election does not preclude denial of human choice as the means of entry. The means must be an additional stipulation.

I encourage people to read what Van wrote and see the legalism and works-based means of election/salvation he preaches. Such legalism is a variation on the legalism Paul condemned in his letter to the Galatians. Such a teaching is devoid of grace.

 

[Van]

2 Thessalonians 2:13-14
But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the first fruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth. To this he called you through our gospel, so that you may obtain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Notice, a human generating their own faith and thus convincing God to credit them election is NEVER taught in the Bible. Such a theology is a teaching coming from the figment of your own mind, not from God in His word.

Once again the Calvinists deny scripture. All they do is make false statements. 2 Thessalonians 2:13 says God chose you...through ... belief in the truth.

 

[Van]

Van wrote:
First lets define “corporate” election as God making a choice to deal with a group of people according to His purpose. Thus, whoever is “in the corporate sphere” of His choice is chosen, and therefore anyone who enters that sphere becomes chosen or elect. The concept does not include a specific way to enter that sphere, so it is consistent with the Arminian idea that when a person sincerely puts their trust in Christ, they enter that sphere and become “elect” but corporate election does not preclude denial of human choice as the means of entry. The means must be an additional stipulation.

I encourage people to read what Van wrote and see the legalism and works-based means of election/salvation he preaches. Such legalism is a variation on the legalism Paul condemned in his letter to the Galatians. Such a teaching is devoid of grace.

Name calling "legalism" "works-based means of election/salvation" and "devoid of grace." This is all they have folks, but here is the biblical doctrine:

To repeat, I said we are individually chosen for salvation by God placing us into Christ (the sanctification by the Spirit) on the basis of crediting our faith as righteousness.

1) Individual election is not precluded by corporate election.
2) We enter by means of God transferring us into Christ.
3) Election is not passive.
4) We are elect by God's choice, not our own.
5) Faith is not works.

 

[Van]

People are not chosen prior to faith individually, we are chosen individually through or on the basis of faith, 2 Thessalonians 2:13.

2Thessalonians 2:13-14
But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth. It was for this He called you through our gospel, that you may gain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Ephesians 1:4 says we were chosen in Him before the foundation of the world, but that election must be corporate, otherwise we would never have been "not a people" we would have always been "a people chosen for God's own possession." 1 Peter 2:9-10.

1Peter 2:9-10
But you are A CHOSEN RACE, A royal PRIESTHOOD, A HOLY NATION, A PEOPLE FOR God’s OWN POSSESSION, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; for you once were NOT A PEOPLE, but now you are THE PEOPLE OF GOD; you had NOT RECEIVED MERCY, but now you have RECEIVED MERCY.

In order to be chosen through faith, faith must be prior to the individual election, otherwise the choice would not be through faith. Therefore our election prior to our creation must be corporate according to scripture.

 

[AustinC]

Once again the Calvinists deny scripture. All they do is make false statements. 2 Thessalonians 2:13 says God chose you...through ... belief in the truth.

I quoted that verse, which actually proves you to be wrong. Why do you deny what God tells you?

 

[AustinC]

Name calling "legalism" "works-based means of election/salvation" and "devoid of grace." This is all they have folks, but here is the biblical doctrine:

To repeat, I said we are individually chosen for salvation by God placing us into Christ (the sanctification by the Spirit) on the basis of crediting our faith as righteousness.

1) Individual election is not precluded by corporate election.
2) We enter by means of God transferring us into Christ.
3) Election is not passive.
4) We are elect by God's choice, not our own.
5) Faith is not works.

Van, I have shown scripture. You are wrong, yet you refuse to accept what scripture tells you.