1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Featured Individual Election and Corporate Election

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Van, Jan 3, 2021.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Top Posters
Page 1 of 7
  1. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    28,742
    Likes Received:
    1,136
    Faith:
    Baptist
    First lets define “corporate” election as God making a choice to deal with a group of people according to His purpose. Thus, whoever is “in the corporate sphere” of His choice is chosen, and therefore anyone who enters that sphere becomes chosen or elect. The concept does not include a specific way to enter that sphere, so it is consistent with the Arminian idea that when a person sincerely puts their trust in Christ, they enter that sphere and become “elect” but corporate election does not preclude denial of human choice as the means of entry. The means must be an additional stipulation.

    Secondly, it is a false dichotomy to say if God does sometimes choose to deal with a group for some purpose, that means He does not ever choose individuals for some related purpose. Corporate election does not require the denial of individual election, and individual election does not require the denial of corporate election.

    As we wade into the subject of corporate election, our first question might be, do we see in the Bible the notion of corporate election or individual election. The answer is both. As Dr. Daniel B. Wallace wrote, “Individual and corporate perspectives are intertwined in Paul.”

    Next, to paraphrase Dr. Wallace, “whether individual or corporate election is in view, the election is initiated by God and effected by God. Those who are chosen become what they were chosen for.” Judas was chosen to fulfill the betrayer prophecy, and that is what he became.

    Next can there be corporate election without first being individual election? The answer to this depends on how one understands the question. For example Abraham was chosen and then within his descendants the line leading to Christ was promised, the world being blessed through Abraham’s seed. So this would be an example of an individual election resulting in a corporate election. On the other hand God might choose to order the destruction of a people who are in the way of God’s people from fulfilling His purpose. So the answer is there can be corporate elections that are the consequence of individual elections, and there can be corporate elections not as a consequence of an election of some individual from the group.

    Which brings us to the crux of the matter, are we chosen corporately to salvation or individually to salvation? Dr. Wallace again correctly pointed out that Romans 8:33 clearly addresses charges being brought against individuals, saying if they are elect, no charge can be brought. Why not? Because they were chosen by God to salvation, and no plan of God can be thwarted. If all has been forgiven by God, no lesser entity can bring any charge. If you have a Presidential pardon, no state governor can charge you with the pardoned crime. Secondly, and this point was definitely not made by Dr. Wallace, if a person was chosen to salvation, they would be elect, but if they had not received forgiveness, then a charge could be brought against them. Thus this verse requires that election to salvation and that salvation go hand in hand with no delay between the two.

    And if as required by Romans 8:33, there is no delay, when are we chosen? Since many verses clearly teach before we were chosen, we were sinners; our individual election to salvation has to occur during our physical lifetime. In 1 Corinthians 1:26-30 we see God chose what the world saw as weak and foolish, requiring those chosen to be in and therefore known by the world. Second Thessalonians 2:13 says we are chosen through belief in the truth, requiring that we were alive and believing in Jesus when we were chosen. 1 Peter 2:9-10 says once we were not a people but now we are a people, requiring that we lived before becoming part of God’s chosen people, and also once we had not received mercy but now we have received mercy, again requiring that we lived without receiving mercy, and then we received mercy. Lastly we have God choosing the poor to the world, again requiring people being chosen while living and known to the world. James 2:5.

    In summary, when God chose Christ to be His Redeemer, that was an individual election that resulted in a corporate election, everyone subsequently redeemed was corporately chosen in Him, as the target group of His redemption plan, thus He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, but we enter that corporate sphere when God individually credits our faith as righteousness and places us spiritually in Christ, thus the sanctification by the Spirit, 2 Thessalonians 2:13 being our individually set apart in Christ is our individual election to salvation.
     
    #1 Van, Jan 3, 2021
  2. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    28,742
    Likes Received:
    1,136
    Faith:
    Baptist
    2Thessalonians 2:13-14
    But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth. It was for this He called you through our gospel, that you may gain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

    Those that deny scripture say the above verse does not say God has chosen you through or by reason of faith in the truth.
    The slice and dice the verse and deny "through" (Greek "en" being used to show instrumentality) describes the means God used to choose (setting us apart in Christ) and the reason for His choice - faith in the truth - as determined by Him.

    There turn nouns (salvation) into verbs (to be saved) in their rewrite. Pay no attention to the nullifies of God's inspired word.
     
    #2 Van, Jan 3, 2021
  3. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2006
    Messages:
    6,890
    Likes Received:
    262
    Faith:
    Baptist
    You really need to prove there is an individual election. No where does scripture say the words Individual election. This means it's made up and is not real.
    MB
     
    #3 MB, Jan 3, 2021
  4. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    28,742
    Likes Received:
    1,136
    Faith:
    Baptist
    [quote = MB]It's funny that you post a verse that opposes what you Believe. This scripture clearly states the truth, It says right in the middle of it,"God chose you as the first fruits to be saved through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth."' In other words these all must come first before you're saved. I do not agree with Van at all because Van is an Arminian. Arminians are your close brethren. LOL!
    MB [/quote]

    Pay no attention to those dullards who think the view in the OP reflects Arminianism. It debunks both Calvinism and Arminianism because both those false doctrines falsely claim individual election for salvation occurred before creation, before we lived not as a chosen people of God. Their view is clearly unbiblical, 1 Peter 2:9-10.
     
    #4 Van, Jan 3, 2021
  5. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    28,742
    Likes Received:
    1,136
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Pay no attention to those dullards who do not know the OP shows Arminianism to be mistaken doctrine because they believe we were chosen for salvation before creation, which is false doctrine as shown by 1 Peter 2:9-10, for once we were not a people and one we had not received mercy, so our individual election must occur during our lifetime. It is a lock.
     
    #5 Van, Jan 3, 2021
  6. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2006
    Messages:
    6,890
    Likes Received:
    262
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Pay no attention to those dullards who think the view in the OP reflects Arminianism. It debunks both Calvinism and Arminianism because both those false doctrines falsely claim individual election for salvation occurred before creation, before we lived not as a chosen people of God. Their view is clearly unbiblical, 1 Peter 2:9-10.[/QUOTE]
    When you call your self elect you are claiming to be a Jew. Being chosen for Salvation and being elected to be a people of God are two different things. Not the sa,e thing nor can they ever be.
    MB
     
    #6 MB, Jan 3, 2021
  7. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2020
    Messages:
    10,454
    Likes Received:
    451
    Faith:
    Baptist
    or, the reading:

    "But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth" (ESV)

    "But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers and sisters loved by the Lord, because God chose you as firstfruits to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth" (NIV)

    "As for us, we can’t help but thank God for you, dear brothers and sisters loved by the Lord. We are always thankful that God chose you to be among the first to experience salvation—a salvation that came through the Spirit who makes you holy and through your belief in the truth." (NLT)

    "My friends, the Lord loves you, and it is only natural for us to thank God for you. God chose you to be the first ones to be saved. His Spirit made you holy, and you put your faith in the truth." (CEV)

    "But we ought to give thanks to God always for you, brethren, beloved of God, for that God hath chosen you firstfruits unto salvation, in sanctification of the spirit, and faith of the truth" (DRB)

    "We must thank God at all times for you, friends, you whom the Lord loves. For God chose you as the first to be saved by the Spirit's power to make you his holy people and by your faith in the truth." (GNT)

    "At all times we are obligated to thank God for you, brothers who are loved by the Lord, because God chose you to be the first fruits for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and through faith in the truth" (ISV)

    Which means that the textual evidence is very much divided, and this verse cannot be used for the purpose of establishing or proving a doctrine.
     
    #7 SavedByGrace, Jan 3, 2021
  8. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2020
    Messages:
    10,454
    Likes Received:
    451
    Faith:
    Baptist
    every individual sinner, after they are saved, become part of the "elect" of God, who form part of the "ἐκκλησία", that is, "the called out ones", which is, "the Church".
     
    #8 SavedByGrace, Jan 3, 2021
  9. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2006
    Messages:
    6,890
    Likes Received:
    262
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I could not disagree more No where in scripture does it ever call Gentiles elect
    Prove it With Scripture.
    MB
     
    #9 MB, Jan 3, 2021
  10. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2018
    Messages:
    4,714
    Likes Received:
    1,174
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Nowhere does scripture say the words Holy Bible. “This means it's made up and is not real.”

    (Just pointing out the flaw in your logic. I can assure you the Holy Bible does exist and is very real.)

    As to your request:
    [Mat 22:14 NASB] 14 "For many are called, but few [are] chosen."[G1588]

    [Rom 16:13 NASB] 13 Greet Rufus, a choice[G1588] man[G1588] in the Lord, also his mother and mine.

    [Col 3:12 NASB] 12 So, as those who have been chosen[G1588] of God, holy and beloved, put on a heart of compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience;

    [1Pe 1:1 NASB] 1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen[G1588]

    [2Jo 1:1 NASB] 1 The elder to the chosen[G1588] lady and her children, whom I love in truth; and not only I, but also all who know the truth,

    [2Jo 1:13 NASB] 13 The children of your chosen[G1588] sister greet you.

    [Rev 17:14 NASB] 14 "These will wage war against the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, because He is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those who are with Him [are the] called and chosen[G1588] and faithful."

    [2Th 2:13-15 NASB] 13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth. 14 It was for this He called you through our gospel, that you may gain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word [of mouth] or by letter from us.

    [Rom 8:26-30 NASB] 26 In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for [us] with groanings too deep for words; 27 and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to [the will of] God.
    28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to [His] purpose. 29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined [to become] conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
     
    #10 atpollard, Jan 3, 2021
    • Useful Useful x 1
  11. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2020
    Messages:
    10,454
    Likes Received:
    451
    Faith:
    Baptist
    New King James Version Romans 1:6 among whom you also are the called of Jesus Christ

    New King James Version Romans 9:24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

    The "called" is the same as the "elect"
     
    #11 SavedByGrace, Jan 3, 2021
    • Agree Agree x 1
  12. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2006
    Messages:
    6,890
    Likes Received:
    262
    Faith:
    Baptist
    [QUOTE}
    Pay no attention to those dullards who think the view in the OP reflects Arminianism. It debunks both Calvinism and Arminianism because both those false doctrines falsely claim individual election for salvation occurred before creation, before we lived not as a chosen people of God. Their view is clearly unbiblical, 1 Peter 2:9-10.
    [/QUOTE]

    Your the dullard because you believe you are elect of God. How anyone can be so ignorant is beyond me. It is chosen for the Gentiles, not elect, as the Jews every single time and you cannot see the difference. You want to be a Jew so bad you can't stand it.
    Then you turn on your own doctrine. Keep wavering.
    MB
     
    #12 MB, Jan 3, 2021
  13. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2020
    Messages:
    10,454
    Likes Received:
    451
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Your the dullard because you believe you are elect of God. How anyone can be so ignorant is beyond me. It is chosen for the Gentiles, not elect, as the Jews every single time and you cannot see the difference. You want to be a Jew so bad you can't stand it.
    Then you turn on your own doctrine. Keep wavering.
    MB[/QUOTE]

    Romans 9.24 shows that both Jews and Gentiles are the called, that is the elect
     
    #13 SavedByGrace, Jan 3, 2021
    • Agree Agree x 1
  14. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2006
    Messages:
    6,890
    Likes Received:
    262
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The true name is Word of God. The term Bible is actually a how to manual. I didn't name it Bible. Some one else did that. Never the less God's Word is a manual for life. You still haven't proven you are elect and will inherit the promises made to the Jews.
    MB
     
    #14 MB, Jan 3, 2021
  15. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2020
    Messages:
    10,454
    Likes Received:
    451
    Faith:
    Baptist
    :Geek:rolleyes:
     
    #15 SavedByGrace, Jan 3, 2021
  16. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2006
    Messages:
    6,890
    Likes Received:
    262
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Wrong the Called are called for a specific purpose. Not everyone is called to preach for instance or to be a missionary or to heal or to lead.
    You are a knowledgeable person but you failed to prove you are elect. None of what you posted says elect so why do you claim it?.
    I think it really funny when people claim one thing and the verse they use to prove there points doesn't prove they are elect. Both words may mean the same but they are used in different context which changes the meaning of the word.
    MB
     
    #16 MB, Jan 3, 2021
  17. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2006
    Messages:
    6,890
    Likes Received:
    262
    Faith:
    Baptist
    No it isn't.
    MB
     
    #17 MB, Jan 3, 2021
  18. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2020
    Messages:
    10,911
    Likes Received:
    1,458
    Faith:
    Baptist
    In that order, there is no elect. There is only you choosing your own salvation. You are the elector, God is just a passive and limp object who does nothing but place a checkmark down regarding the good work you just accomplished.
     
    #18 AustinC, Jan 3, 2021
    • Informative Informative x 1
  19. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2020
    Messages:
    10,454
    Likes Received:
    451
    Faith:
    Baptist
    says you! :rolleyes:
     
    #19 SavedByGrace, Jan 3, 2021
  20. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2020
    Messages:
    10,911
    Likes Received:
    1,458
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Says the scripture. But your interpretation of it twists it so you go backwards and works becomes the means of salvation.
     
    #20 AustinC, Jan 3, 2021
Page 1 of 7
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Loading...