Son of JOHN 3:16 :)

[atpollard]

[We were asked to leave the room, so we came here.]
@George Antonios

Although noble on the surface (and what believer would not agree with that statement?), it is in fact a confession that the interpretation limiting the sense of world and whosoever to only the pool of the elect, as Calvinistically understood, is not possible in John 3 - which was the OP's point to begin with.

Quick question just based on what seems to me to be "in your face" obvious about John 3:16 ...

Why is it impossible for God to:

• "love the world" (be that men from every nation and all men and all of creation; each in a different way) and send His son ...
  • men from every nation: Revelation 5:9
  • all men: Ezekiel 18:32
  • all of creation: Genesis 1:31
• so that "whoever believes" (which is not everyone because not everyone believes) will not perish.
  • John 3:18

John 3:16 always seemed like an important verse about the intentions of God (something we get few glimpses into) and a terrible proof text for the Calvinism/Arminianism debate.

 

[atpollard]

I don't think I understand the thrust of the question. Can you please make it plainer?

@George Antonios

Sure.

• Does John 3:16 support the belief that God so loved some men from every nation (kosmos) that he sent His son ... like those described in Revelation 5:9 where Jesus purchased for God with His blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation?

• Does John 3:16 also support the belief that God so loved all mankind (kosmos) that he sent His son ... for the reason described in Ezekiel 18:32, that God takes no pleasure in the death of anyone and calls all men to repent and live.

• Does John 3:16 also support the belief that God so all of creation (kosmos) that he sent His son ... a creation described in Genesis 1:31 as "very good".

IF John 3:16 does support the belief that God sent His Son because He so loved the WORLD (some from every nation) and (all mankind) and (all of creation); then:

• Does John 3:16 teach that "whoever believes" will not perish, but from John 3:18 we know that "whoever believes" is not "everyone" because not everyone will believe; He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already.

 

[SavedByGrace]

Sorry I was not asking you guys to leave but the thread had moved away from the OP

 

[atpollard]

Sorry I was not asking you guys to leave but the thread had moved away from the OP

No offense.

We were drifting into a new topic so a new thread was appropriate. I was attempting to offer a “numerous” explanation for why this thread starts out with quotes from another topic. Sorry if I seemed offended. That was not what I intended.

You and I are good.

 

[SavedByGrace]

To carry on this discussion, as I have already said in the OP of my own thread on John 3:16-18, it is impossible that we understand John's use of "kosmos" in this passage, to mean anything other than the entire human race, that is, each and every individual, from Adam till the last person. Having said that, it is only those who "believe" from out of this "kosmos", will be saved, as is very clear from verse 18, "but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God". This same verse starts by saying, "He who believes in Him is not condemned". This shows that out of this "kosmos", there are those who will believe and be saved, and there are those who will not believe, and be lost.

In verse 17 there are three mentions of "kosmos". "For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved". It is evident that the first use refers to our "world", that is, "earth", where Jesus Christ came to live for 33 years. Now, "kosmos" is taken in a limited sense as some do, to refer on to those for whom Jesus came to die, "the elect", then why would Jesus say, "σωθη", that is, "might be saved"? To my understanding the only possible way to read this, is, that Jesus Christ came into this world to die for the sins of very human being, and only those who atcually do "repent and believe", will be saved. The use of the subjunctive σωθη shows, that though salvation is possible for all, only those who get saved, will not be lost.

 

[atpollard]

I was attempting to offer a “numerous” explanation

That was supposed to be "Humorous" ... God bless auto spell correction.

 

[atpollard]

To carry on this discussion, as I have already said in the OP of my own thread on John 3:16-18, it is impossible that we understand John's use of "kosmos" in this passage, to mean anything other than the entire human race, that is, each and every individual, from Adam till the last person.

I disagree that it is impossible to understand WORLD in John 3:16 to mean "anything other than the entire human race".

There are THREE common ways that "kosmos" (a collection) is used:

1. WORLD (all of the "earth" that God created)
2. MANKIND (all human beings)
3. DIVERSE PEOPLE (some people from each nation, tribe and tongue)

... and "kosmos" is used all three ways at different places in scripture.

What I find fascinating, is if one inserts each possible meaning of "kosmos" into John 3:16, the verse still makes sense and tells a truth that can be supported by other verses of scripture. For this reason, I cannot help but ask if God intended ALL THREE MEANINGS to be applicable! If that is the case, then John 3:16 proclaims a fascinating motive for the Incarnation ... God loves varies in its breath and depth and has different targets. The restoration of CREATION, the SAVIOR of mankind (even those that reject Him) and the beloved BRIDEGROOM of the Church. Three loves, each different and each directed towards a different target, all finding "Yes and Amen" in the Son of God.

So let me ask you what I asked George:

• Does John 3:16 support the belief that God so loved some men from every nation (kosmos) that he sent His son ... like those described in Revelation 5:9 where Jesus purchased for God with His blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation?

• Does John 3:16 also support the belief that God so loved all mankind (kosmos) that he sent His son ... for the reason described in Ezekiel 18:32, that God takes no pleasure in the death of anyone and calls all men to repent and live?
  • (You already answered this one).

• Does John 3:16 also support the belief that God so all of creation (kosmos) that he sent His son ... a creation described in Genesis 1:31 as "very good"?
  

WHY or WHY NOT?

 

[atpollard]

In verse 17 there are three mentions of "kosmos". "For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved". It is evident that the first use refers to our "world", that is, "earth", where Jesus Christ came to live for 33 years. Now, "kosmos" is taken in a limited sense as some do, to refer on to those for whom Jesus came to die, "the elect", then why would Jesus say, "σωθη", that is, "might be saved"? To my understanding the only possible way to read this, is, that Jesus Christ came into this world to die for the sins of very human being, and only those who actually do "repent and believe", will be saved. The use of the subjunctive σωθη shows, that though salvation is possible for all, only those who get saved, will not be lost.

I agree that the "limiting factor" in John 3:16 is not really "world" (although that is linguistically possible, it is too far a stretch in my opinion), rather the limiting factor is "whosoever believes". However, John 3:16 does not actually SAY that Jesus died to save the WORLD; it only says that God loved the world. It says that WHOEVER BELIEVES will not perish.

John 3:16 really is neutral on Limited atonement vs Universal atonement.

• John 3:16 does not contradict the premise that Christ died for all and only those that believe are forgiven.
• John 3:16 does not contradict the premise that God loved all and Christ died to forgive those that believe.

For this reason, John 3:16 really makes a bad "proof text" for the "atonement" arguments.
However it is a great text about the heart of the Gospel message.

 

[George Antonios]

We are not saying: "It's impossible to manipulate the verse in some clever way to limit the word world to some predetermined albeit non-contextual group", which is what your answer is doing. You're saying: "Look, I can still make it work".

We are saying that as it stands, read plainly and in context, there is no way, from the text itself, to limit world to anything other than mankind generally.

 

[atpollard]

We are not saying: "It's impossible to manipulate the verse in some clever way to limit the word world to some predetermined albeit non-contextual group", which is what your answer is doing. You're saying: "Look, I can still make it work".

We are saying that as it stands, read plainly and in context, there is no way, from the text itself, to limit world to anything other than mankind generally.

OK, suit yourself ... you really don't understand the point that I was trying to make ... whatever.

However at least be honest that you are cherry-picking the "context" since the context also includes "this is the judgement" and the references to mankind rejecting him.

In any event, WHO GOD LOVES is not the same as WHO JESUS SAVES (not perish) in that verse.

 

[George Antonios]

OK, suit yourself ... you really don't understand the point that I was trying to make ... whatever.

However at least be honest that you are cherry-picking the "context" since the context also includes "this is the judgement" and the references to mankind rejecting him.

In any event, WHO GOD LOVES is not the same as WHO JESUS SAVES (not perish) in that verse.

 

[atpollard]

• [John 1:4-5 NASB] 4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. 5 The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

• [John 1:9-10 NASB] 9 There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.

• [John 1:11 NASB] 11 He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him.

• [John 1:12-13 NASB] 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, [even] to those who believe in His name, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

• [John 2:14-16 NASB] 14 And He found in the temple those who were selling oxen and sheep and doves, and the money changers seated [at their tables.] 15 And He made a scourge of cords, and drove [them] all out of the temple, with the sheep and the oxen; and He poured out the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables; 16 and to those who were selling the doves He said, "Take these things away; stop making My Father's house a place of business."

• [John 2:24-25 NASB] 24 But Jesus, on His part, was not entrusting Himself to them, for He knew all men, 25 and because He did not need anyone to testify concerning man, for He Himself knew what was in man.

• [John 3:3 NASB] 3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."

• [John 3:4-8 NASB] 4 Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born, can he?" 5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 "Do not be amazed that I said to you, 'You must be born again.' 8 "The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit."

• [John 3:9-15 NASB] 9 Nicodemus said to Him, "How can these things be?" 10 Jesus answered and said to him, "Are you the teacher of Israel and do not understand these things? 11 "Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know and testify of what we have seen, and you do not accept our testimony. 12 "If I told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13 "No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man. 14 "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; 15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life.

• [John 3:16-21 NASB] 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 "This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. 20 "For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21 "But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God."

Are these verses part of the "CONTEXT" of John 3:16 or not?
You are just as guilty of choosing to emphasize some of the context at the expense of other parts of the context as this post when you make the claim ...

We are saying that as it stands, read plainly and in context, there is no way, from the text itself, to limit world to anything other than mankind generally.

All I asked for is honest disagreement, not false posturing. Of course there is a way. To claim otherwise is hubris.

 

[SavedByGrace]

I disagree that it is impossible to understand WORLD in John 3:16 to mean "anything other than the entire human race".

There are THREE common ways that "kosmos" (a collection) is used:

1. WORLD (all of the "earth" that God created)
2. MANKIND (all human beings)
3. DIVERSE PEOPLE (some people from each nation, tribe and tongue)

... and "kosmos" is used all three ways at different places in scripture.

What I find fascinating, is if one inserts each possible meaning of "kosmos" into John 3:16, the verse still makes sense and tells a truth that can be supported by other verses of scripture. For this reason, I cannot help but ask if God intended ALL THREE MEANINGS to be applicable! If that is the case, then John 3:16 proclaims a fascinating motive for the Incarnation ... God loves varies in its breath and depth and has different targets. The restoration of CREATION, the SAVIOR of mankind (even those that reject Him) and the beloved BRIDEGROOM of the Church. Three loves, each different and each directed towards a different target, all finding "Yes and Amen" in the Son of God.

So let me ask you what I asked George:

• Does John 3:16 support the belief that God so loved some men from every nation (kosmos) that he sent His son ... like those described in Revelation 5:9 where Jesus purchased for God with His blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation?

• Does John 3:16 also support the belief that God so loved all mankind (kosmos) that he sent His son ... for the reason described in Ezekiel 18:32, that God takes no pleasure in the death of anyone and calls all men to repent and live?
  • (You already answered this one).

• Does John 3:16 also support the belief that God so all of creation (kosmos) that he sent His son ... a creation described in Genesis 1:31 as "very good"?

WHY or WHY NOT?

Are you reformed in your theology

 

[atpollard]

Are you reformed in your theology

I am.
Although mostly just the TULIP part ... there is a lot of "Reformed" teaching that goes beyond sotieriology that I am not always in agreement on or just don't care about (like who wants to argue about millenniums).

Having said that, I came to Christianity from Atheism through Catholic Charismatics and the Church of God before coming to TU*IP on my own from reading scripture and eventually learning that my beliefs were called "Particular Baptist" according to an online survey. I also learned a lot about Presbyterian "Reformed" by debating on line with one of them "baby dunkers" .

 

[SavedByGrace]

I am.
Although mostly just the TULIP part ... there is a lot of "Reformed" teaching that goes beyond sotieriology that I am not always in agreement on or just don't care about (like who wants to argue about millenniums).

Having said that, I came to Christianity from Atheism through Catholic Charismatics and the Church of God before coming to TU*IP on my own from reading scripture and eventually learning that my beliefs were called "Particular Baptist" according to an online survey. I also learned a lot about Presbyterian "Reformed" by debating on line with one of them "baby dunkers" .

It explains your understanding of John 3.16-18

 

[George Antonios]

• [John 1:4-5 NASB] 4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. 5 The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

• [John 1:9-10 NASB] 9 There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.

• [John 1:11 NASB] 11 He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him.

• [John 1:12-13 NASB] 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, [even] to those who believe in His name, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

• [John 2:14-16 NASB] 14 And He found in the temple those who were selling oxen and sheep and doves, and the money changers seated [at their tables.] 15 And He made a scourge of cords, and drove [them] all out of the temple, with the sheep and the oxen; and He poured out the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables; 16 and to those who were selling the doves He said, "Take these things away; stop making My Father's house a place of business."

• [John 2:24-25 NASB] 24 But Jesus, on His part, was not entrusting Himself to them, for He knew all men, 25 and because He did not need anyone to testify concerning man, for He Himself knew what was in man.

• [John 3:3 NASB] 3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."

• [John 3:4-8 NASB] 4 Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born, can he?" 5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 "Do not be amazed that I said to you, 'You must be born again.' 8 "The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit."

• [John 3:9-15 NASB] 9 Nicodemus said to Him, "How can these things be?" 10 Jesus answered and said to him, "Are you the teacher of Israel and do not understand these things? 11 "Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know and testify of what we have seen, and you do not accept our testimony. 12 "If I told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13 "No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man. 14 "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; 15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life.

• [John 3:16-21 NASB] 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 "This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. 20 "For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21 "But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God."

Are these verses part of the "CONTEXT" of John 3:16 or not?
You are just as guilty of choosing to emphasize some of the context at the expense of other parts of the context as this post when you make the claim ...

All I asked for is honest disagreement, not false posturing. Of course there is a way. To claim otherwise is hubris.

The generic listing of verses above is a confession that the context of John 3 doesn't allow for infusing the word world with the theologically external notion of a limited world of Calvinistically "elect" people.

world means world. He didn't say "world of the elect".
The whosoever is a subset of the world of lost men.
This is plain, straightforward, and non-controversial.

 

[kyredneck]

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life. Jn 3

"in your face" obvious about John 3:16

on John 3:16-18, it is impossible that we understand John's use of "kosmos" in this passage, to mean anything other than the entire human race

world means world. He didn't say "world of the elect".
The whosoever is a subset of the world of lost men.
This is plain, straightforward, and non-controversial.

WHAT IF:

'World' in Jn 3;16 was THIS 'world'?:

20 Jesus answered him, I have spoken openly to the world; I ever taught in synagogues, and in the temple, where all the Jews come together; and in secret spake I nothing. Jn 18

AND, 'eternal life' was 'the quality of eternal (abundant) life'?:

12 Fight the good fight of the faith, lay hold on the life eternal, whereunto thou wast called, and didst confess the good confession in the sight of many witnesses. 1 Tim 6

AND, the 'perishing' was the awful judgment on the Jews 70 AD?:

22 For these are days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23 Woe unto them that are with child and to them that give suck in those days! for there shall be great distress upon the land, and wrath unto this people.
32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all things be accomplished. Lu 21

23 And it shall be, that every soul that shall not hearken to that prophet, shall be utterly destroyed from among the people. Acts 3

 

[George Antonios]

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life. Jn 3

WHAT IF:

'World' in Jn 3;16 was THIS 'world'?:

20 Jesus answered him, I have spoken openly to the world; I ever taught in synagogues, and in the temple, where all the Jews come together; and in secret spake I nothing. Jn 18

AND, 'eternal life' was 'the quality of eternal (abundant) life'?:

12 Fight the good fight of the faith, lay hold on the life eternal, whereunto thou wast called, and didst confess the good confession in the sight of many witnesses. 1 Tim 6

AND, the 'perishing' was the awful judgment on the Jews 70 AD?:

22 For these are days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23 Woe unto them that are with child and to them that give suck in those days! for there shall be great distress upon the land, and wrath unto this people.
32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all things be accomplished. Lu 21

23 And it shall be, that every soul that shall not hearken to that prophet, shall be utterly destroyed from among the people. Acts 3

As the French say, "with 'if's' we could put Paris in a bottle".

 

[atpollard]

It explains your understanding of John 3.16-18

That ... and the Grammar School teacher that FORCED me to learn how to diagram sentences to identify which verb went with which noun and which clause modified which part of the sentence.

(all those comas are not there by accident).

 

[atpollard]

The generic listing of verses above is a confession that the context of John 3 doesn't allow for infusing the word world with the theologically external notion of a limited world of Calvinistically "elect" people.

Why can it NOT be the world of people described in Revelation 5:9 (those who will believe from every nation, tribe and tongue) that God so loved in John 3:16 that he sent his son that they might not perish? Why MUST God love the reprobate that hate him and will continue to hate him even as they are dragged screaming and cursing into Hell resolute in their rebellion? Explain why it is grammatically IMPOSSIBLE that God might not "love" them enough to waste Christ's precious blood by pouring out the Bread and Wine of Communion into the mud in honor of those that refuse to take it (and never will)?

You claim that is is grammatically not possible for it to mean that, but I see no real proof of your claim.

This is plain, straightforward, and non-controversial.

It is. No Reformed Theologian would agree with you, only the Bible bending semi-Pelagians.