Supralapsarianism or Infralapsarianism?

[Van]

Since Christ was "foreknown" before the foundation of the world, God formulated His redemption plan before Adam was created.
1 Peter 1:20

However, the next issue is did God's redemption plan designate the individuals to be redeemed, or was the designation corporate? Corporate because 1 Peter 2:9-10 says once we were not a people. Once we had not received mercy.

God causes or allows whatsoever comes to pass, thus God is not the author of sin. Those that claim God caused Adam to sin are presenting unbiblical bogus doctrine from the middle ages. God provided the opportunity for Adam to sin, and allowed Adam to sin, but Adam sinned on his own volition. That is the biblical doctrine.

As A. W. Pink so carefully demonstrated, God arranged for Adam to sin, but did not cause Adam to sin.

 

[atpollard]

In other words, He knew what we as men would willingly do given the test ( whether to obey under temptation, or to fail and then try to justify ourselves instead of admitting sin and seeking reconciliation immediately ), ordained His Son to be given for a people from before the world began, and decided to save a portion of those who willfully sinned out of it.
All the while reserving the remainder of the unjust for just punishment.

God did more than "just allow" sin. God staged the setting to maximize the opportunity. God allowed external influences to encourage it. God placed temptation right in the face of Adam and Eve ... in the center of the garden.
God allowed Satan into the Garden to speak with them, but withheld Gabriel from talking with them.

God created man "very good", but very good is not "perfect" so creating man with free will (as Adam and Eve had) was to create then TO FALL, because the very good could never be perfect and would need a Savior to PERFECT them. The Plan from before Day 0. [which I think is Supralapsarianism ... but it gives me a headache to think about it too hard. ]

 

[Yeshua1]

I believe the former so that makes me supra right ?

was the Cross of Christ from before or after the fall?

 

[Dave G]

God did more than "just allow" sin. God staged the setting to maximize the opportunity.

I agree, as much as I ( initially ) didn't like the idea...
Now, years later and after factoring in all the things that He both actively did and passively allowed, I've come to the conclusion that His purposes and plans are very, very intricate, my friend.

God allowed external influences to encourage it.

Yep.

God placed temptation right in the face of Adam and Eve ... in the center of the garden.

Again, I agree.

God allowed Satan into the Garden to speak with them, but withheld Gabriel from talking with them.

I agree with the first, but don't see mention made of Gabriel in Genesis.

God created man "very good", but very good is not "perfect" so creating man with free will (as Adam and Eve had) was to create then TO FALL, because the very good could never be perfect and would need a Savior to PERFECT them.

I understand the reasoning, and I agree, for the most part.
I've never thought about that angle ( what I've underlined ), but it could very well be that you are correct.

The Plan from before Day 0. [which I think is Supralapsarianism ... but it gives me a headache to think about it too hard

Meh...
You'll sort it out, not to worry.

 

[Brightfame52]

See my above.

Yes I see that. You said:

In other words, He knew what we as men would willingly do given the test

So how did God come to this knowledge ?

 

[Brightfame52]

was the Cross of Christ from before or after the fall?

From the Eternal aspect it was from the foundation Rev 13:8 in Purpose, but Christ actually died in time 33 ad after the fall. Why you ask me that ?

 

[Yeshua1]

From the Eternal aspect it was from the foundation Rev 13:8 in Purpose, but Christ actually died in time 33 ad after the fall. Why you ask me that ?

was just curious as to how you saw that issue!

 

[atpollard]

So how did God come to this knowledge ?

How did a God that KNOWS EVERYTHING know what was going to happen? ... a lucky (omniscient) guess.

 

[Dave G]

So how did God come to this knowledge ?

Let's put it this way...
I'm not above Him putting it into a man's heart to do something.

But He does not tempt men to sin ( James 1:13-15 ).

He does search the hearts and minds, and He does know every thought and the intent of the heart.
He does see the end from the beginning.

If you're asking me if I think that the Lord set everything up knowing we would fail, I would agree.
If you're asking me if I think He caused Adam to disobey and eat of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, I would disagree.

In other words, He works all things after the counsel of His own will.

 

[Brightfame52]

How did a God that KNOWS EVERYTHING know what was going to happen? ... a lucky (omniscient) guess.

Not the answer I'm looking for.

 

[Brightfame52]

Let's put it this way...
I'm not above Him putting it into a man's heart to do something.

But He does not tempt men to sin ( James 1:13-15 ).

He does search the hearts and minds, and He does know every thought and the intent of the heart.
He does see the end from the beginning.

If you're asking me if I think that the Lord set everything up knowing we would fail, I would agree.
If you're asking me if I think He caused Adam to disobey and eat of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, I would disagree.

In other words, He works all things after the counsel of His own will.

That is where we differ. I believe God knew because He purposed it in the first place.

 

[Dave G]

I believe God knew because He purposed it in the first place.

Again, I don't know if I'm being understood or not here.
I see that He did indeed purpose it.

But in the context of James 1:13-15, God did not do the tempting, as He is righteous and holy.
He only set things up knowing what would happen by allowing Satan to do the tempting and knowing that Adam would fall.

That said, I've stated my beliefs as closely as I can, pending further insight.
I wish you well and this is my last reply in this thread.



May God bless you much in your studies.

 

[Brightfame52]

Again, I don't know if I'm being understood or not here.
I see that He did indeed purpose it.

But in the context of James 1:13-15, God did not do the tempting, as He is righteous and holy.
He only set things up knowing what would happen by allowing Satan to do the tempting and knowing that Adam would fall.

That said, I've stated my beliefs as closely as I can, pending further insight.
I wish you well and this is my last reply in this thread.



May God bless you much in your studies.

Yes I believe that God knew what was going to happen with Adam in the garden because He purposed it to happen. He created Adam to fall on purpose, because the world was made for a Redemptive Purpose in Christ Jesus. All things including Adam were made for Christ Purpose Col 1:16

for by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him

 

[percho]

OK, so let's revive THEOLOGY just for our sad brother in Christ, "SavedByGrace".

Supralapsarianism or Infralapsarianism?

Did God choose His plan of salvation BEFORE He created people, thus knowing when he first began the work of forming Adam that God was creating both people to end up in heaven and people to spend eternity in hell (because the fall was part of the plan from the beginning)?

Did God create mankind first, and only chose his plan of salvation after the fall of Adam made it necessary?

(Is that theological enough?)

I believe, before the foundation of the world, because of this verse: - he who is doing the sin, of the devil he is, because from the beginning the devil doth sin; for this was the Son of God manifested, that he may break up the works of the devil; 1 John 3:8 YLT, Adam was created so that, the Son of God, could be manifested as a man, the Word made flesh.

I also believe, before the foundation of the world, that man Adam was going to sin and bring the death to man, because of this verse: - Seeing, then, the children have partaken of flesh and blood, he himself also in like manner did take part of the same, that through death he might destroy him having the power of death -- that is, the devil -- Heb 2:14 YLT

Through Heb 2:14, 1 John 3:8 is accomplished.

1 Cor 15:26 YLT the last enemy is done away -- the (in the Greek) death;
and the God of the peace shall bruise the Adversary under your feet, in (in the Greek) (quickness) quickly; the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen! Rom 16:20 YLT with what I added for correct understanding. In a moment in the twinkle of an eye - in quickness.

Supralapsarianism or Infralapsarianism? I don't know what that makes me. Would have to google those two words and ain't going to.

 

[Brightfame52]

percho

I also believe, before the foundation of the world, that man Adam was going to sin and bring the death to man,

Agreed, Adam was made in line with a Eternal Redemptive Purpose centered in the Lord Jesus Christ