1689Dave
Well-Known Member
It only says the binding of Satan is from deceiving the nations. You add to Revelation if you conclude anything else.
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Pre-Mil Fallacy
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1689Dave
Well-Known Member
In the Ecumenical Creeds, we learn who the heretics are. You should know them by heart.
Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
No.
Seven Visions are Seven Visions.
Seven Spirits is in context with Seven churches.
The same message is sent to the Seven Churches
and the Self-Same Spirit is The Seven Spirits.
Seven are to be viewed as one.
The Interpretation is demanded by the text and would have prevented you from flying off into the air, thinking you knew an alarm clock was available to be set sometime(?), by somebody ( The End Times Bible novices) for something(?) later to happen after the alarm clock rings(?).
Tell me 'The Seven Sections'. What are 'The Seven Sections' we're talking about?
THE SEVEN PARALLEL SECTIONS OF THE BOOK OF REVELATION.
In each case, the parallel sections consider the time period from the First to the Second Comings of Christ; only the perspective differs. (Revelation 1:1 clearly confirms this First Coming-Second Coming time scale of all that appears within the book).
The parallels are somewhat spiritually progressive, with the seventh and final section even venturing into The New Heavens and the New Earth.
A quick and easy way to see the seven parallels is the fact that the Second Coming of our Lord appears to occur seven times in this book, something thousands have wondered about.
This is because there are seven parallel sections, covering events from John's day to the parousia.
SECTION ONE.
Christ in the Midst of the Lamps (Rev. 1:1-3:22):
THE AGE OF THE CHURCH.
The lampstands represent the 7 churches; these are typical of all churches throughout this church age. As in all of these sections, the narrative brings us to Christ's return (3:20-22).
SECTION TWO.
The Vision of Heaven and the Seals (Rev.4:1-7:17):
THE CHURCH WILL BE TRIUMPHANT.
This is a picture of the entire Church triumphant and includes the first mention of the 144,000. Once again, the section closes in chapter seven with the return of Christ, but since the theme here is the Church triumphant, the focus is almost entirely on the saved.
SECTION THREE.
The Seven Trumpets (Rev. 8:1-11:19):
THE WORLD WILL BE PUNISHED FOR ITS REJECTION OF GOD.
This section describes the affects of the Seven Trumpets on both those who reject God and upon the saved. Dark and fearful things affect the world in chapters eight and nine, whilst chapters ten and eleven focus on the Church. Once again (as in all of the other sections), the narrative brings us to Christ's return at the seventh trumpet (11:15). The message is clear: terrible things will come upon a God-rejecting world but God's own people will rejoice!
SECTION FOUR.
The Persecuting Dragon (Rev. 12:1-14:20):
THE CHURCH MUST EXPECT PERSECUTION.
The woman and the Man-child are persecuted by the dragon and his helpers. The section starts with a clear reference to the birth of our Saviour (12:5), the dragon threatens to devour the Man-child (Christ), but He is caught up to heaven, so the dragon now persecutes the 'woman' (the Church) through the agencies of the 'beast' and the 'harlot.' This is why Christians must expect persecution. Yet again the section closes with the Second Coming and with impending judgment (14:14-20).
SECTION FIVE.
The Seven Bowls (Rev. 15:1-16:21):
FINAL JUDGMENT.
These seven sections progressively reveal a little more and now the entire focus is on the final judgment of this world, and Armageddon is mentioned (16:16). Indications are strong (as we will learn later in this article) that the seven bowls and seven trumpets refer to exactly the same events but from somewhat differing perspectives; Christ returns at the seventh bowl and seventh trumpet.
SECTION SIX. The Fall of Babylon (Rev. 17:1-19:21):
BABYLON'S CONFUSION FINALLY REMOVED FROM THE WORLD.
The current Babylonian system is why people are currently blinded to spiritual truth and worship money, commerce and various satanic ideologies: Darwinism, Marxism, Pantheism (modern 'environmentalism' is clearly pantheistic), and all the false religions. Babylon said (and currently still says) that people can freely be wealthy and prosperous at the expense of others and that these people can have a religion of their choice to appease their souls; Babylon masked the truth about God and gave people a religion of their minds; Babylon truly offered a self-earned justification, bedecked in deceptive luxury, moreover, it may even be observed in modern evangelicalism. This section shows when Babylon will finally be destroyed for her evil works of deception. We again find the return of Christ occurring (19:11), these regular returns of Christ confirm that these are parallel sections, not consecutive occurrences!
SECTION SEVEN.
The Great Consummation (Rev. 20:1-22:21):
GOD'S KINGDOM SPREADS FROM HEAVEN TO THE EARTH
AND TO THE ENTIRE UNIVERSE!
The final section which reveals such great spiritual truth begins by going back to the start of the Church age to show how Satan has been restricted during this age. We even see the saints in heaven awaiting the resurrection (20:4-5), then we learn more about a final great military battle and the final destruction of the beast, false prophet and Satan himself (20:7-11), next we are presented with an amazing glimpse of the Great White Throne of Judgment when everybody who has ever lived must stand before God! (20:11-15). Yet it does not even finish there: God has even allowed us a symbolic glimpse into the New Jerusalem and the New Heavens and New Earth (chapters 21-22).
"FURTHER CONFIRMATIONS THAT THE ABOVE ARE INDEED PARALLEL SECTIONS:
1. The similarities between Revelation 12 and 20 are very striking and the feeling is strong that the approximate same time period is being covered but from differing perspectives, with a focus on differing events during the period; the former focusing on the persecution which believers must expect, the latter focusing on how God's eternal kingdom will never be thwarted but will finally be established upon the earth (as it currently is in heaven).
2. According to the third period, the period which is being described is one of forty-two months (11:2), or twelve hundred and sixty days (11:3), but we also find this same time period in the fourth parallel section (chapters 12-14), where it is 'twelve hundred and sixty days' (12:6), or, 'a time, and times and half a time' (12:14) - of course, as all serious Bible students will know, these are periods of exactly the same length. This very strongly suggests that the period of the trumpets being blown (section three), is parallel with section four, in which Christ battles the dragon. So up to this point we have strong indications of parallels between Section Three (the Seven Trumpets), Section Four (Christ battles the dragon), and the final Section Seven (the Great consummation).
3. But there is still more: Section Three (the seven trumpets) shows very strong indications of being parallel with Section Five (the bowls of wrath). How so? Because the first trumpet (8:7) affects the earth, so does the first bowl (16:2), the second trumpet affects the sea, so does the second bowl, the third trumpet refers to the rivers, so does the third bowl, the fourth trumpet refers to the sun, so does the fourth bowl, in both cases the fifth refers to the pit of the abyss, the sixth to the Euphrates and the seventh to the Second Coming! Therefore indications are indeed strong - if not pretty much overwhelming - that the seven trumpets and seven bowls refer to exactly the same events but with different emphases and viewpoints. This again obviously tends to substantiate that these are indeed seven parallel sections.
4. The final defeat of the dragon, the beast out of the sea, the beast out of the earth, and the great harlot are effectively described in two different sections (six and seven), therefore those sections must surely be parallel.
5. The bowls of wrath section (5), ends with a great battle, 'the battle of the great day of God Almighty (16:14), the next section (6), also ends with a great battle (19:19), finally, in Section Seven, one may read, 'to gather them together to battle' (20:8), therefore it would seem reasonable to conclude that those sections are indeed at least roughly parallel and certainly sometimes actually describe the same events.
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1689Dave
Well-Known Member
You are Phariseeizing the text. God blinded them so they could not understand the scriptures. Yet you practice their folly and don't even know what Jesus says about the Kingdom.
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
Jesus says the Kingdom is within you. How can you have a sinful kingdom such as the Pharisee's physical Millennium within you?
How about a literal reign!
The Kingdom is here in part, but well be in full at His Second Coming!
You just keep repeating points that have been answered from Scripture. The exclamation mark doesn't make them more true.
Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
Alive with Christ
…5made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in our trespasses. It is by grace you have been saved!
6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with Him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,
7 in order that in the coming ages He might display the surpassing riches of His grace, demonstrated by His kindness to us in Christ Jesus.…
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
And he is LOCKED AWAY IN AN ABYSS. Are you really ignoring that line?
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
Which creed specifically. And again, Creeds are not on the same level as Scripture.
Israel will never have the 'special status' she once had over the Nations, it's literally gone forever:
38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. Mt 23
21 And a strong angel took up a stone as it were a great millstone and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with a mighty fall shall Babylon, the great city, be cast down, and shall be found no more at all.
22 And the voice of harpers and minstrels and flute-players and trumpeters shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft, shall be found any more at all in thee; and the voice of a mill shall be heard no more at all in thee;
23 and the light of a lamp shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the princes of the earth; for with thy sorcery were all the nations deceived.
24 And in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints, and of all that have been slain upon the earth. Rev 18
19 .... Let there be no fruit from thee henceforward for ever..... Mt 21
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
The abyss is all around us. Have you ever studied the kingdom according to Jesus? It's in the 4 gospels. You need to do this. Can you find one passage that teaches Premillennialism?
Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
The '1,000 years'
Some will agree that most all of Revelation's numbers are symbolic, but then - for doctrinal reasons, not purely biblical reasons - they will suddenly insist on strict literalism when '1,000' is used; this is a very odd approach indeed!
Interestingly, '1,000' is never used literally in the Bible, it is used either symbolically, poetically or as a 'round-up' figure for several hundred.
Despite this, some groups build quite complex theologies around the concepts of a 'millenium' and also a 'rapture,' two words which never occur in Scripture!
Indeed, in the case of 'millenium' the teachings are based on the belief that just one chapter in Revelation is literal (chapter 20), even when these undoubtedly very sincere people will usually freely admit that a large percentage of what one finds in that book is symbolical, rather than literal.
Moreover, most millenialists will admit that the concept of a 'millenium' is completely absent from the teachings of Jesus and the apostle Paul.
But why 1,000 in the case of Revelation? Well it should be noted that 1,000 is a number of ideal completion, as it is the multiple of 10x10x10. In Revelation 20, '1,000 years' is symbolic of two things:
a. The entire time which the church needs to fulfil her mission upon earth; the mission achieves perfect completion in the symbolic '1,000 years.' (During this period, although dangerous, Satan cannot prevent the elect of God from responding to their calling, please carefully notice Rev. 20:1-3 and compare that with Luke 10:17-20!).
b. The '1,000 years' also refers to the rule of the deceased souls of Christians in Heaven. Since Christ's victory over death, the souls of all who die in Christ go to Heaven to be comforted, prior to the full resurrection of body and soul. See Revelation 20:4-5.
This is described as 'the first resurrection' in Revelation 20:5-6.
Please note that these are 'souls' (verse 4, NIV throughout), confirming that the resurrection is yet future.
These are '...The souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony...' (verse 4), again, confirming that these were true believers while upon earth and that their souls are in heaven at the time which John sees them in this vision.
Verse 5 then confirms for us that this 'first resurrection' of the soul in Heaven only applies to those who were elect believers upon the earth and are now saved,
'(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.)...' (verse 5).
John Nelson Darby (1800-1882)
John Nelson Darby who, in the 19th century, established an entirely new theological approach towards the Scriptures through 'Dispensationalism.' Part of his schema involved introducing an approach towards prophecy and towards the apocalyptic books which had previously only been successful among the sects. In Dispensationalism, the Bible becomes divided up into seven different 'dispensations' and specific teachings on a "rapture" and a "millenium" become important even though neither word even occurs in any bone-fide English translation of Scripture. But Darby's new approach may well have remained almost unknown but for Cyrus Scofield (an American lawyer, not a Bible expert), who popularized it through his Scofield Reference Bible.
Incidentally, much (but not all) of established Christian theology has usually believed that this first group are the only group which can be saved, but Scripture strongly infers that salvation is also possible for a larger group later on, as we shall soon note.
So those who are not in this 'first resurrection' group do not rise until Judgment Day and that Day occurs at the completion of the mission of the Church, the time of the parousia (Second Coming) of Christ. Of course, this 'first resurrection' of the soul is not the same thing as the Great Resurrection of body and soul which Paul describes in 1 Corinthians 15, when all will rise (Matthew 25:31-46; John 5:28-29; 1 Cor. 15:15-28; Rev. 20:11-15). It is true that Paul mainly focuses on the resurrection of Christians in 1 Cor. 15, and they will rise in complete confidence and joy following the prior joyous experience of many of them in heaven. But Rev. 20:5 again, confirms that the inspired text is speaking of those true believers, recipients of God's grace, who die before and during this age of the Church.
[By the way, Matthew 25:31-46 also does not show any long time lapse between the judgment of believers and unbelievers and depicts one resurrection and judgment period following Christ's return to earth].
It is very odd that some groups insist that Rev. 20 refers to a 1,000 year age which is yet future - beyond the resurrection of the saints - when the text could hardly make it plainer that this speaks of what theologians call 'the intermediate state' (between death and resurrection). Also, notice that the body and soul resurrection of 1 Corinthians 15 is plainly not being discussed since we are simply told that those martyred for the testimony of Jesus, "came to life" as souls ('souls'=Greek word 5590 in Strong's Concordance, transliterated as 'psuche.' See inset article, 'Souls in the New Testament' here). As further evidence that it is the souls of believers who are in Heaven which is under discussion here, please note the strong similarity of the language between Rev. 20:4-5 and Rev. 6:9-11. So the evidence seems strong that 'first resurrection' is a term for entering Heaven at death (but we cannot deny that some have made a strong case for stating that 'first resurrection' refers to being 'born again' at Christian conversion; an even third possibility which a few have suggested is that 'first resurrection' refers to the resurrection of Christ in which all believers participate when entering Heaven at death, and beyond that of course).
Then verse 6 confirms for us that these are the souls of true believers when it tells us that, 'Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them...' (Rev 20:6a). In other words, those believers who enter Heaven at death cannot fail to inherit Eternal Life (again, for those who believe that 'first resurrection' refers to being 'born again' it remains true that those genuinely 'born again' will not fail to go on and achieve everlasting life).
Verse 7 then tells us of the final tribulation just prior to Christ's return to earth which occurs 'When the thousand years are over...' In other words, when the mission of the Church upon earth is completed. This refers to a final time of great trouble and specific persecution of the church at the conclusion of the mission of the 'Two Witnesses' (that is, at the conclusion of the mission of the church who are to witness for Christ 'two by two' ; Luke 10:1 and Revelation 11:7). But this is only allowed to happen when the Church has fulfilled its mission upon earth, and is just prior to the Second Coming of our Lord.
Regarding resurrection, a few may wonder why the resurrection Scriptures in 1 Cor. 15 and also 1 Thess. 4, only mention believers rising from the dust of the earth without reference to their souls already having spent time in Heaven, but the answer is really very simple; God is very aware of the safety of their souls but the full resurrection of body - as well as soul - is deemed very important in Christian theology and the Resurrection of the Dead naturally focuses on that in the scriptural account; indeed, even believers in Heaven - while in a state of joy and closeness to God - appear to long for the full resurrection to life in Rev. 6:9-11.
I am very aware that a large group of American Christians who may be reading this will be finding it somewhat strange, this is largely because of the huge influence of Darby's 'dispensationalism' - an influence largely engineered by the dispensationalist-influenced Scofield Reference Bible which has become very popular among American Christians during the last 100 years (even though almost unknown among British Christians).
Robin A. Brace, 2007.
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
Let's check your level of competency. You tell me which creeds they condemn Premillennialism in.
timtofly
Well-Known Member
If Satan has not deceived the nations, then where does all this false doctrine from all religions and governments come from?
You claim pre-mill comes from false teachers led by Satan, no? Who is deceiving who here? What did Satan offer the nations and Israel prior to the Cross that is any different from current false teachings?
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
The elect from among the nations are not deceived by having the gospel. The rest are. You need to balance scripture with scripture.
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
First, According to the Nicene Creed
………………. and He shall come again, with glory, to judge both the living and the dead; Whose kingdom shall have no end.
Sproul, R. C. (Ed.). (2015). The Reformation Study Bible: English Standard Version (2015 Edition) (p. 2389). Orlando, FL: Reformation Trust.
And condemned as heresy by the Council of Ephesus in 431 in two ways.
“In addition to its condemnation of Nestorianism, the council also condemned
Pelagianism, [2] and rejected premillennialism (Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Papias,
Tertullian, Origen, Lactantius) in favor of Amillennialism (Clement of
Alexandria, Chrysostom, Jerome and Augustine of Hippo): "Augustine's
explanation became Church doctrine when it was adopted as the definitive
explanation of the millennium by the Council of Ephesus in 431."[35]
Secondly, “Canon 7 condemned any departure from the creed established by the First Council of Nicaea (325)” This affirmed Jesus “shall come again, with glory, to judge both the living and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end.” Thereby denouncing premillennialism and the doctrines leading up to and including Dispensationalism of the 1800s.
Scripture More Accurately
Well-Known Member
If you are amillennial, when exactly do you believe that Satan was bound specifically in the sense that Revelation 20:2-3 teaches? It could not have been any time before the glorified Christ gave the book of Revelation to John. So when was he bound in that manner and where does Scripture tell you when it was?
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timtofly
Well-Known Member
Paul said sin entered by one man, Adam. Paul did not claim Eve introduced sin into the world. It is not biblical to presume facts that are not in the Scriptures.
Sin was present even without A Law, particularly the Law of Moses. Sin cannot be present before God allowed it. At what point is the law written in the hearts of human kind?
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