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Featured What is the Law for Us

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by SGO, Mar 23, 2021.

  1. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    in the ot...then ten commandments were expanded in Deut.
    All ten were expounded on.
    Why I said it is not a simple answer is that we are under the 10...under Jesus...
    sermon on the mount
    teachings in the gospels
    Direct revelation in revelation and Hebrews
    the word given to the Apostles
    The words of the OT. prophets
    wisdom books
    some ot laws are still valid.

    Do we sacrifice animals, no.
    Jesus is the final sacrifice.
    Feast days? No....fulfilled in Jesus.
    Cities of refuge? No, that was for that ot. theocracy, and also fulfilled in Jesus if you consider the law as the manslayer.
    Are we in a Theocracy? I say yes.
     
  2. SGO

    SGO Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for coming back Iconoclast and I apologize for my crankiness.

    I'm trying to work it through.

    Christ is the end of the law for righteousness because He lived the Law and completely fulfilled it, and He alone.

    We cannot live through the law because it is weak through the flesh (Romans 8:3).

    And through deeds of the law no flesh shall be justified in his sight (Romans 3:20).

    Or if righteousness was possible through even our trying to live by the law Christ died in vain (Galatians 2:21).

    But we have the entire bible to use for our spiritual edification (Romans 15:4) even though we are not obligated to participate in ceremonies for in Christ those ceremonies are completed or fulfilled (Hebrews).

    However those ceremonies and many other things in the Old Testament teach spiritual truths.

    But the New Covenant is far better than the Old Covenant as Christ is the fulfillment of the Law (Hebrews).

    We have, in effect, a new law: the law of Christ.

    The new law has the "Ten" plus love God with everything you have and love your neighbor as yourself?

    What about #4 remember the sabbath day to keep it holy (Exodus 20:8) ?
     
  3. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    The Old Covenant was the Ten Commandments. (proof if needed).

    “Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, That I will make a new covenant With the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers In the day that I took them by the hand To bring them out of the land of Egypt; Which my covenant they brake, Although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, And write it in their hearts; And will be their God, And they shall be my people.” Jeremiah 31:31–33 (KJV 1900)

    Laws to observe?

    “But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.” Acts 15:20 (KJV 1900)

    This is not OT Law. If so, it would require returning to the entire Old Covenant. It is NT law that pre-dates the OT. Genesis 9:4 shows abstinence from blood commanded by God to Noah.

    Joshua 24:2 shows the idol worship of Abraham's ancestors.

    So the point is that since similarities exist in the Old Covenant, they do not place us back under the OT.

    “As they went through the towns, they passed on the decrees that had been decided on by the apostles and elders in Jerusalem for the Gentile believers to obey.” (Acts 16:4)

    The Sermon on the Mount is the Christian application of the Law. We give instead of simply not stealing. We love instead of simply not murdering enemies. Instead of not coveting we resist the lust associated with it and seek to bless instead.
     
  4. SGO

    SGO Well-Known Member

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    Thanks but I would say the New Covenant incorporates some of the Old Covenant but the ceremonies and animal sacrifices are out.
    The Old Covenant is not to be put in the trash heap especially since Romans 15:4 for the whole Old Testament is at least spiritually beneficial.

    Yes, I would like to see the proof that the Old Covenant was just the ten commandments, unless you are taking Iconoclast's, "some ot laws are still valid,"(post #21) point of view that the ten commandments were expanded upon in the Pentateuch.
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  5. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    Here's proof the Ten Commandments were the sum of the Old Covenant.


    Ten Commandments were the Old Covenant

    “And He (God) wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments.” Exodus 34:28

    “And He declared unto you His covenant, which He commanded you to perform, even the Ten Commandments.” Deuteronomy 4:13:

    “When I was gone up into the mount to receive the tables of stone, even the tables of the covenant.” Deuteronomy 9:9:

    “So I turned and came down from the mount . . . and the two tables of the covenant were in my two hands.” Deuteronomy 9:15:

    “There was nothing in the ark save the two tables of stone which Moses put there at Horeb, when Jehovah made a covenant with the children of Israel, when they came out of the land of Egypt,” I Kings 8:9

    “And there have I set a place for the ark, wherein is the covenant of Jehovah, which he made with our fathers, when he brought them out of the land of Egypt.” I Kings 8:21

    The second of these two texts is repeated in II Chronicles 6:11.

    Consider “The ark of the covenant” that held the Ten Commandments (Numbers 10:33; Jeremiah 3:16, and other places)

    Also; “It contained the golden altar of incense and the ark of the covenant covered entirely with gold. In this ark were the golden urn containing the manna, Aaron’s rod that budded, and the stone tablets of the covenant.” (Hebrews 9:4) (NET)
     
  6. SGO

    SGO Well-Known Member

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    OK!

    Great.

    Yes the 10 commandment are part and parcel of the Old Covenant.

    Thank you for taking the time, 1689Dave, to do that.

    Now what about all the other things in the Old Testament that appear to be God's commands, must be over a thousand?

    Are they just for physical Israel and not for those of faith?

    And of those thousand plus, none for New Testament believers?

    How many arguments could we have then.
     
  7. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Heb4:9..
    .
    We agree for the most part
     
  8. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

    Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

    Can ( I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts ) be done without, ( we shall all be changed ) first taking place?


    we shall all be changed - Is that when we enter his rest? Is that the sabbath rest that remains for the people of God?
     
  9. Alcott

    Alcott Well-Known Member
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    8 1/2 of them are, anyway.
     
  10. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    God abolished physical Israel leaving only believers in Christ. This happened when he abolished circumcision. It is what made one a physical Jew (religion) and a physical member of Israel. Biblical Israel since then is the Church.
     
  11. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Which 1.5 vanished?
     
  12. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I think that Scripture is fairly clear that the Ten Commandments (and the entire Law) were given to a generation of Israel and their descendants (not their ancestors). So the Law in this sense is not universally applicable. Also, the Law was not intended to save but to ultimately to testify of Christ and the need of salvation. So no, we are not under the Law (the Ten Commandments or the Mosaic Law) BUT we are under the Law of Christ.

    The Old Covenant was "do this and live", when there was none righteous and none that could "do this and live". It was an issue of obedience.

    The New Covenant is the righteousness of God manifested apart from the Law. God recreates man, takes out our old heart of stone and gives us a new heart - He puts His Spirit in us and He causes us to be obedient.

    Jesus said that if we love Him we will obey His commandments. This does not mean if we love Him we are then tasked with obedience, but rather if we love Him we WILL obey His commands. We will love God and one another.

    If we love God and our fellow men, then what of the "Ten Commandments" would we break? None. But rather than this being an Old Covenant prescription for righteousness this is a New Covenant description of the love of Christ in us.

    If I love God then I will love my neighbor. If I love God I will not have any other gods before Him, I will not make any graven image, I will not take His name in vein, I will keep the Sabbath (Christ is our Sabbath) holy, I will honor my parents, I will not kill, I will not commit adultery, lie, steal, or covet.

    But the Law of Christ goes farther. It is about the heart. I will not murder because I will not hate, I will not commit adultery because I will not lust after another...etc.

    If we are walking in the Light it is IMPOSSIBLE to break any commandment of God. John wrote that we would not sin. BUT if we do sin we have an Advocate or Mediator in Christ Jesus (something not afforded under the Mosaic Law....God Himself Mediates for us).

    So no, we were never under the Ten Commandments or the Mosaic Law. But I would not say that without the explanation that the Law we are under goes much deeper than the Ten Commandments (the two Commandments are not in the Big Ten but if we are obedient to those two - if we have the mind in us that is in Christ - then the whole of the Law is fulfilled because it is fulfilled in Christ.
     
  13. Santiaguito

    Santiaguito New Member

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    Hello...The Peace of Jesus the "Jewish" Crist, who is the Holy Spirit, The Eternal Father, Son of God and Son of man, The God of Abraham and the Living God in His human nature, be with you...YOU SAY:<<
    [/QUOTE]
    This is the Law of Moses, although some commadments are still uses as: Love your neighbor as yourself, Passover and The attonement etc.. But this is only for the New Spiritual Israel, the New Nation of Jesus, since the Literal Israel was cursed and the kingdomo of God was taken away from them,,Jesus Made a New Spiritual Israel = Titus 2:13-13 = Ephesians 2:15 + 2 Cor. 5:17-21 = Acts 2:38-40 = Ephesians 5:24-27....His Holy ETERNAL MORAL LAW =(The Covenant of Love between the Literal Israel and Jesus is still ON..= Hebrews 4:9 Therefore "STILL REMAINS" A Sabbath-Day for the New People of the God of Aberaham =The Spiritual Israel, the Spiritual Jews a.k.a Christians, His Christs, His Saints, His Church.....Have a happy Sabbarth-Rest as the God of Abraham and His People is having today....Brother James....A Church or a person withouth the Holy Sabbath-Day, is like a Christ without the cross=A False Christ, of no help for salvation.....
     
  14. Santiaguito

    Santiaguito New Member

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    ...

    Hello...The peace of Jesus, The "Jewish" Christ who is the Holy Spirit, The Eternal Father, Son of God and Son of man, the God of Abraham and the Living God in His human nature be with you....YOU SAY:<<But the Law of Christ goes farther. It is about the heart. I will not murder because I will not hate, I will not commit adultery because I will not lust after another...etc.<< This are the 10 Commandments...The Covenant "OF LOVE" Between the Literal Israel and the God of Abraham=The Holy Spirit namely Jesus, and Now it is for the New Spiritual Israel the New Nation of Jesus = Titus 2:13-15 since the literal Israel was "CURSED"..The Gentiles don't have to OBEY IT only The people of the God of Abraham =The Spiritual Jews a.k.a Cristians, but?!! Also the Saving Grace is for the Spiritual Jews = Rev.. 22:21 for the "REMNANT">..Have a Happy, Holy Sabbath-Day as the God of Abraham=(Jesus) is having today and His New People the Spiritual Jews, His Christs, His Saints, His Church...Brother James...All who reject "HIS HOLY..."ETERNAL LAW" are "CURSED" and The Creator and Giver of this Law = Jesus, says in Matthew 25:41 That all who are "CURSED" will spend eternal life in hell.....
     
  15. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    "Why I said it is not a simple answer" is because your Lordship Salvation dogma demands it.

    It IS simple:

    8 Owe no man anything, save to love one another: for he that loveth his neighbor hath fulfilled the law.
    9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not covet, and if there be any other commandment, it is summed up in this word, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.
    10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbor: love therefore is the fulfilment of the law. Ro 13
     
  16. Alcott

    Alcott Well-Known Member
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    None vanished. But the New Testament makes it plain that regarding one day above another(s) is something we make up our own minds about [Romans 14:5-6], and we are to let no one judge us about this [Colossians 2:16]. What I just said here is bound to be the trigger to start the conflict the original poster intended.

    And in regard to the second commandment, it is not repeated in the NT to "not make ANY likeness of ANYthing." That would rule out photography, engineering drawing, computer icons, among other things. But we are commanded to not worship idols, and this is expounded to mean "the good things of this world." [money, property,...].
     
  17. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    One sentence:

    12 All things therefore whatsoever ye would that men should do unto you, even so do ye also unto them: for this is the law and the prophets. Mt 7
     
  18. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    HI Brother

    There are far more than 10 Ten Commandments, but they are all encompassed in the Two (which are not among the Ten).

    I wonder if God's Law being simply Love has anything do do with God being love.
     
  19. SGO

    SGO Well-Known Member

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    I do see things "like" the ten commandments (the summation of the Law of Moses) in the New Testament but I do not see any specific New Testament bible verses that say we are under Moses' Law in any respect.

    On the contrary,
    In Romans 6:14 it specifically says
    ... for ye are not under the law,
    but under grace.

    And also in Romans 6:15
    ... because we are not under the law,
    but under grace...

    We carry the dead flesh around with us but are free to choose to follow the Spirit, for Christ has set us free.

    Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free,
    and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
    Galatians 5:1

    The only law we are under is the law of Christ:

    Jesus said unto him,
    Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart,
    and with all thy soul,
    and with all thy mind.
    This is the first and great commandment.
    And the second is like unto it,
    Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.
    On these two commandments
    hang all the law and the prophets.
    Matthew 22:37-40

    Bear ye one another's burdens,
    and so fulfill the law of Christ.
    Galatians 6:2

    We are under the law of Christ only, because the priesthood has changed.

    For the priesthood being changed,
    there is made of necessity
    a change also of the law.
    Hebrews 7:12
     
  20. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Since Peter's sermon in Acts 2...Jesus is Lord and Christ.
    This has not changed.
    People in Ky.who are saved know Him as Lord and Christ.
     
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