37818
Well-Known Member
We hold two completely different dispensational views.
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Help with Romans 11:20-21
- Thread starter George Antonios
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- romans 11
No. Read the verses before your 2 verses.
Romans 11:4-5,7-8
But what is God’s reply to him? “I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace.
What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened, as it is written, “God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that would not see and ears that would not hear, down to this very day.”
Now read your verses. See how the church is in covenant with God, but not everyone in the church has faith. Those whom God has given faith will remain in faith as the persevere.
Romans 11:19-21
Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you.
atpollard
Well-Known Member
If you wanted to apply it to "individual salvation" and maintain a doctrine of "eternal security" ... perhaps view it through a lens of "GOD HAS NO GRANDCHILDREN".
Abraham became the father of all who believe, but Ishmael was not saved because of the blood of Abraham. Esau was not saved by the faith of Isaac. How many of David's decedents chose God as their portion?
All children born into Christian homes start out with an advantage (even as being born a Jew offered one a starting advantage of access to the word and teachings of God). Yet how many grow up "highminded" and lacking in fear of the Lord? How many choose unbelief and find themselves broken off from the fellowship that once protected them as children?
see Ezekiel 18.
Paul speaking of the Jews who were under the Old Covenant relationship with God, but were not the faithful remnant in Israel!
Cut off because of there own blindness and rejection of Christ.
MB
George Antonios
Well-Known Member
A saved Gentile and saved Jew are into spiritual israel!
George Antonios
Well-Known Member
The church is the body of Christ whereinto we are baptized by the Spirit (1Co.13:12).
No one can be part of Christ's spiritual body without faith in Christ.
George Antonios
Well-Known Member
...ships in the night...ships in the night...
Right. We see that people can be in covenant with God, yet not have faith in God. Church members can come to church and worship God in covenant with everyone, yet not have faith or be alive with Christ. Such people are in danger of being cut off, just as God cut off the scribes and Pharisees from covenant with him.
True, but you can be in covenant with God and not be made alive with Christ. Israel shows us this truth throughout the Old Testament. It may be hard for you to make that distinction if you are unfamiliar with God as a covenant making God.
George Antonios
Well-Known Member
Absolutely not in the New Testament. The New Testament is in my blood the Lord says (Mt.26:28). You can't be unbelieving in his blood and yet be in the covenant in his blood, since we avail ourselves of the New Testament through faith in his blood (Ro.3:25).
George Antonios
Well-Known Member
There is no such New Testament reality.
God created a man in his own image, male and female created he them and called their name Adam. Gen 5:1,2
Adam sinned and everyone born of woman after him, sans one, sinned and was a sinner.
1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
When did the devil sin and begin his works and did that have anything to do with Adam becoming a sinner and all after him. sans one?
When will the works of the devil be totally destroyed? Consider this statement: The yet God of the peace, shall be crushing the Satan under the feet of you in swiftness. The grace of the Lord of us, Jesus Christ, with you. Amen. Romans 16:20
Consider those spoken to are presently dead. When will Satan be crushed in swiftness, under their feet?
Adam beget Seth, and others --- Noah beget Ham beget others and Canaan, Noah beget Japheth, Japheth beget and others. Shem ------------Abraham others Ishmael, Isaac God's chosen, Esau, Jacob God's chosen, twelve boys, Judah unto Christ unto him the people be gathered, Joseph two sons; But his father refused and said, I know, my son, I know: he also will become a people, and he also will be great; but truly his younger brother will be greater than he; and his seed will become the fulness of nations. And he blessed them that day, saying, In thee will Israel bless, saying, God make thee as Ephraim and Manasseh! And he set Ephraim before Manasseh. Those divided into the house of Judah, Judah, Benjamin and Levi and the house of Israel the rest.
Christ of Judah came, died, was raised out of the dead, to die no more, no more to return to corruption, ascended to heaven to the sit on right hand of the Father and on Pentecost following being raised out of the dead, sent the first-fruit of the Spirit to indwell those chosen of God of the house of Judah. Peter was then shown by God that he would also be choosing out of the nations those to be given the first-fruit of the Spirit as a people for his name. Acts 15:1-14 The scriptures testified God would do this V 15.
V 16 After doing that------ Jesus will return from heaven/
Why What about all not inclusive in the above? When will the Satan, in swiftness, be crushed under their feet? V 17 Will he be crushed under other feet also?
Does this have anything to say about Romans 11:20,21?
22-36?
Read it slow and carefully.
Adam sinned and everyone born of woman after him, sans one, sinned and was a sinner.
1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
When did the devil sin and begin his works and did that have anything to do with Adam becoming a sinner and all after him. sans one?
When will the works of the devil be totally destroyed? Consider this statement: The yet God of the peace, shall be crushing the Satan under the feet of you in swiftness. The grace of the Lord of us, Jesus Christ, with you. Amen. Romans 16:20
Consider those spoken to are presently dead. When will Satan be crushed in swiftness, under their feet?
Adam beget Seth, and others --- Noah beget Ham beget others and Canaan, Noah beget Japheth, Japheth beget and others. Shem ------------Abraham others Ishmael, Isaac God's chosen, Esau, Jacob God's chosen, twelve boys, Judah unto Christ unto him the people be gathered, Joseph two sons; But his father refused and said, I know, my son, I know: he also will become a people, and he also will be great; but truly his younger brother will be greater than he; and his seed will become the fulness of nations. And he blessed them that day, saying, In thee will Israel bless, saying, God make thee as Ephraim and Manasseh! And he set Ephraim before Manasseh. Those divided into the house of Judah, Judah, Benjamin and Levi and the house of Israel the rest.
Christ of Judah came, died, was raised out of the dead, to die no more, no more to return to corruption, ascended to heaven to the sit on right hand of the Father and on Pentecost following being raised out of the dead, sent the first-fruit of the Spirit to indwell those chosen of God of the house of Judah. Peter was then shown by God that he would also be choosing out of the nations those to be given the first-fruit of the Spirit as a people for his name. Acts 15:1-14 The scriptures testified God would do this V 15.
V 16 After doing that------ Jesus will return from heaven/
Why What about all not inclusive in the above? When will the Satan, in swiftness, be crushed under their feet? V 17 Will he be crushed under other feet also?
Does this have anything to say about Romans 11:20,21?
22-36?
Read it slow and carefully.
We are at an impasse. You struggle with a covenantal God and thus cannot accept that an unbeliever can be in a covenant relationship with God, yet not be saved. The problem for you is that the Bible clearly shows us such a relationship. That covenantal relationship continues into the church whereby people worshipping in covenant at a church may not be believers. Such a distinction is in the Bible, but you seem unable to grasp this. Perhaps God will help you see.
You are absolutely right that church members can come to church, say and do all the right things, yet not have a living faith or be alive in Christ.
But tell me, what covenant do you think such people are in?
That is a good question and one I admit to working out. My initial thought is the New Covenant, which replaces the Sinai/Mosaic Covenant. I view the Abrahamic Covenant as being associated with redemptive faith and thus being an everlasting covenant. I can see the New Covenant as having a corporate component to it which encompasses all the church members without fully requiring a redemption of the individual by faith, yet also including the redeemed. I will not die on this hill as I am still working out this covenantal relationship we have with God. I recognize that Reformed faith tradition and Lutheran faith tradition (as well as Roman Catholic faith tradition) seems to incorporate this idea of covenant. I think Rome and Lutheran tradition goes too far as the create baptismal regeneration from such covenant, but the Reformed do not establish regeneration while still understanding covenant. I admit this is a work in progress for me as I originated from a free will Baptist, dispensational upbringing. As I study, read and listen, I begin to see the beautiful flow of the Bible in covenantal relationship.
I hope that isn't offensive to say I am in process of working this out.
atpollard
Well-Known Member
“For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.” [1 Corinthians 7:14 KJV]
No. Like so many do, you read hell into the text.
George Antonios
Well-Known Member
Precisely. holy.
Not "saved", not "under the new covenant", not "Christians", not "regenerated", not "justified", not "redeemed". Holy just means "set apart". All that means is that God recognizes the marriage as legitimate and the children as non-bastards since Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled (Heb.13:4).
You think a Christ-rejecting teenage son of a Christian & non-Christian couple is automatically under the individualistic New Testament which can only be availed of through faith in the blood of Christ?
Imagine building a soteriology on that one verse...
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