Prevenient Grace - Catholic View

Hello LaGrange, hopefully you're still following this thread Jacobus Arminius describes prevenient grace this way;

Jacobus Arminius describes Prevenient Grace;
Concerning grace and free will, this is what I teach according to the Scriptures and orthodox consent: Free will is unable to begin or to perfect any true and spiritual good, without grace. …This grace goes before, accompanies, and follows; it excites, assists, operates that we will, and co operates lest we will in vain.
From Wikipedia the free encyclopedia, article on Prevenient Grace and
Arminius, Jacobus 1853, The Works of James Arminius, D.D., Formerly Professor of Divinity in the University of Leyden, Auburn, NY: Derby & Miller, vol. 2:472.

I understand that most of the belief systems which espouse freewill agree with this definition, would you?

My question is, has every person throughout time and will every person in the future be afforded prevenient grace or "preparatory graces"? If what I am reading is correct no one can choose to follow Christ without their will being prepared so you cannot exercise your true freewill to choose without prevenient grace?

 

Hello again LaGrange, I know I haven't given you enough time to reply to my question, especially since yesterday was Easter and that can be a busy day, but I read all the posts in this thread and I wanted to say something before it is closed, (you never know when that will happen) so here are some more thoughts ...If you say only some are afforded preparatory graces, which I strongly think you wouldn't, then you have to ask yourself how different is Arminianism from Calvinism if Calvinism says God chooses some people and Arminianism says only some people get to choose?
Prevenient Grace requires every single person throughout humanity to be allowed to choose just like Adam and Eve and this nullifies the curse of Adam.
So if that's the case, Truly Adam could have exercised his supernatural freewill and rebuffed Satan's influence? In theory could humanity still be in the garden today and the fall would never have happened, and Christ would've never needed to be sacrificed for us?
What this says to me is everyone is brought to a cognizant point in their life where they can have the same choice that Adam had?
You might believe that every single person who has ever gone to hell went there because they rejected God's personal call to believe on the name of Jesus for the remission of sin, but if you say that your doctrine is less believable than Calvinism and you nullify the Great Commission.
I'm sure I'm not the only one here that can argue that the gospel says "Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.", and the great commission which says "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations", hasn't happened for every single person on the earth throughout time, so some people haven't been given the preparatory graces, they haven't been given the right to choose and freewill has not been honored.
Next I ask why are so many people in hell, If God gives humanity the graces and freewill to negate Adams sin then humanity itself must be predisposed to making the wrong choice. Were the anticipated losses acceptable to God because of the few, (comparatively) that would be saved? How does this make Arminianism any different than Calvinism in the perceived unjustness of God?
I also ask why did the graces touch me in a better way and I am saved, (or being saved in your view) am I a smarter person, or did God give me better evidence? If I chose better than the people in hell then I truly participate in half of the salvation equation by providing the faithful choice, (or process in your view) and I don't agree with that; that's where the rift between the churches is and until we all agree that prevenient grace is a fairytale there will never be a healing.

To clarify I believe in "irresistible grace", that when it is given why wouldn't someone who is created for God and by God not want to choose God given the proper assurances and evidences? I believe we are predisposed to God but God has to get to us through a spiritual war and that is why there is disparity in God's choice.
This still has the problem that in God's omniscience He must have known who He could get to and who He couldn't, and so God considered the masses that He couldn't reach acceptable losses. It's not just for Calvinism that you end up asking, "if God so loved,...why?", all three views end up at the same conclusion, but who are we to judge God by human standards?
Whatever scenario you choose though, Christ was sacrificed before the foundation of the world showing that God always knew we would need Him to save us; Christ's sacrifice wasn't an afterthought, it was a forethought.

It would be incredible If we did stop squabbling and come together and change our focus from "it's OK God will save them" or "it's OK God will give them a choice" to "it's not OK so let's do all we can to get to those people that haven't heard the gospel". Let's all be tools for God to pull the weeds and the rocks and plow the pathways so that God can have a harvest in these nations.
That's what we need to do; we fool ourselves because we think God's got this, but He's got this through us (the Great Commission) and we're sitting back on our laurels, but He knew we would do that too I suppose...

With that said; concerning the Roman Catholic doctrine to which you espouse;
In your sixth post you say "...until baptism where are you are justified and sanctified. Maybe, at some point, you backslide and fall into mortal sin and are no longer justified. Then, prevenient grace helps move you to penance which restores you to sanctifying grace. Then, with prayer and grace, while in sanctifying grace, you do many things like praying and doing good works and also you receive the holy Eucharist and grow through that into sanctification."
I believe you're trying to describe justification as a process so if you are no longer justified at various points in this process, you have stopped persevering and I assume you're going to hell? You say that along the way you can go from a state of justified to not justified, which I parallel with you are saved or you're not saved at these points. In a roundabout way, you say you need another sacrifice, and you call out the Eucharist and other graces and in effect you establish a sacrificial system. I have read somewhere that the Catholics believe all religions have a sacrificial system and that, for Catholic's, Christ exists in a certain place in perpetual sacrifice. I have said in another place in these forums I believe Hebrews was written to refute the construction of a new sacrificial system out of Christ's sacrifice. I believe that Hebrews was written to combat the doctrines that ultimately led to the establishment of the Roman Catholic doctrine; Hebrews 6:6 specifically states that you can't be renewed to "repentance" speaking directly to your system of repentance. I believe Catholics who believe Salvation is a process think you are never truly saved until you get to heaven and so you can fall in and out of justification, Salvation not being a single point but I continual point until the final point. I said before in another place that when Christ sacrifice is applied to me God no longer sees my sin and if I ever come out from under that covering, whether it be in the present or whether He sees me coming out from under that covering in the future, because He sees everything, I can't go back under, I can't go back to looking like Jesus in His eyes. Hebrews 10:17 says there is no more sacrifice for me and God doesn't remember my sins any more, so I should always look like Christ to Him. I think you would say this is the baptismal point and afterwards the sacrificial system kicks in? This modifies what it is actually saying and says that God doesn't remember my previous sins prior to baptism, but the ones after baptism have to be dealt with…You simply have a "new and improved" sacrificial system compared to the Levitical one.

 

HI TITUS!

To defend what you perceive as a unbiblical manmade tradition should be commended. What you do is good keep it up.

First lets tackle people in hell.

We don't know if anyone is in hell.

Also can't say a person has free will then all the sudden its impossible for them to deny God.

Your gonna have to drop one or the other, you can't have free will and say once saved always saved.



The Eucharist.

Catholics are not creating a new sacrifice. When Jesus at the last supper said take this, this is my body and this my blood its the new covenant. Do you even say that is One sacrifice and then something else going on at the Cross?

Right off the bat we would have to accuse Jesus of making a separate sacrifice when the reality it is all tied to the cross.


In Passover Jews celebrate Passover, represent in the sense that they make present the actual event. So if you are Jewish you would be one in the same to that event. Its not a brand new Passover. You are in the actual event of Passover

When you partake of the Eucharist you are there at the foot of the Cross.

Here is prophetic scripture from my perspective its come to pass, from your perspective it hasn't been done, so when will you do it? I'm just showing you small portion if you read the whole chapter its apparent there is ONLY ONE PERFECT sacrifice pleasing to God.


Malachi 1

11For from the rising of the sun even to its setting, My name shall be great among the nations, and in every place frankincense is going to be offered to My name, and a grain offering that is pure; for My name shall be great among the nations,” says the LORD of armies.


Around the world 24/7 There is a Eucharist being offered.

Tell us about this GRAIN OFFERING that is pure and how you burn incense at your altar do you even have an altar?

Remember what I said before there is only ONE PERFECT SACRIFICE pleasing to God. We know that is Jesus Christ.

So how do you plan to square this circle of a pure grain offering given to God 24/7? The only pure offering Is Jesus Christ.


This not something the church thought up last weekend. He's early church fathers on the issue.

“Assemble on the Lord’s day, and break bread and offer the Eucharist; but first make confession of your faults, so that your sacrifice may be a pure one. Anyone who has a difference with his fellow is not to take part with you until he has been reconciled, so as to avoid any profanation of your sacrifice [Matt. 5:23–24]. For this is the offering of which the Lord has said, ‘Everywhere and always bring me a sacrifice that is undefiled, for I am a great king, says the Lord, and my name is the wonder of nations’ [Mal. 1:11, 14]” (Didache 14 [A.D. 70]).

“God speaks by the mouth of Malachi, one of the twelve [minor prophets], as I said before, about the sacrifices at that time presented by you: ‘I have no pleasure in you, says the Lord, and I will not accept your sacrifices at your hands; for from the rising of the sun to the going down of the same, my name has been glorified among the Gentiles, and in every place incense is offered to my name, and a pure offering, for my name is great among the Gentiles . . . [Mal. 1:10–11]. He then speaks of those Gentiles, namely us [Christians] who in every place offer sacrifices to him, that is, the bread of the Eucharist and also the cup of the Eucharist” (Dialogue with Trypho the Jew 41 [A.D. 155]).


“He took from among creation that which is bread, and gave thanks, saying, ‘This is my body.’ The cup likewise, which is from among the creation to which we belong, he confessed to be his blood. He taught the new sacrifice of the new covenant, of which Malachi, one of the twelve [minor] prophets, had signified beforehand: ‘You do not do my will, says the Lord Almighty, and I will not accept a sacrifice at your hands. For from the rising of the sun to its setting my name is glorified among the Gentiles, and in every place incense is offered to my name, and a pure sacrifice; for great is my name among the Gentiles, says the Lord Almighty’ [Mal. 1:10–11]. By these words he makes it plain that the former people will cease to make offerings to God; but that in every place sacrifice will be offered to him, and indeed, a pure one, for his name is glorified among the Gentiles” (Against Heresies 4:17:5 [A.D. 189]).




Square this Circle. Reconsider is Jesus doing two sacrifices himself one at the last supper and then one at the cross? We say no its all one in unity with the holy spirit. I refuse to worship a piece of bread. Jesus Sacrifice is the only pure sacrifice, And we are to offer in sacrifice a PURE GRAIN OFFERING. 24/7 around the world with incense.

Give me the plan how you gonna pull this off, OR MAYBE consider we inclusively(including you) with our brothers and sisters in Christ got this covered.

 

Per Jesus, many will be in hell!

 

You are not telling me anyone is in hell right now though.

 

Hi utilyan , Thank you for your reply!
That is interesting that you don't think people are in hell, but that really wasn't the point; the point is there will be many more lost then saved so when God gives people prevenient grace and freewill to allow them to choose, we as a people more often than not don't choose God; why is that? If the people that never choose Christ are responsible for choosing their own destiny and they were given acceptable graces to make a supernatural choice why do so many people not choose their Creator? If prevenient grace is God's system, and He wants us to choose instead of Him it is obvious that we suck at choosing our own destinies.
That wasn't first question that I asked though, and I will ask you; do you think every person from creation until now has been given the opportunity to choose Christ?


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You affirm that in your doctrine Christ exists in perpetual brokenness on the cross; where is the victory of the empty tomb? You have to perpetually revisit the cross in your sin brokenness but I don't, God doesn't consider my sin any longer Heb 10:17. This sounds blasphemous to you I am sure but please understand that when I sin I don't need to put the new sin in my life at the foot of the cross because I have the Holy Spirit searching me and He knows if I am contrite. Psalm 51:17. I have the direct presence of God inside me every second of every day and my joy in Him is my sacrifice I don't need to visit Jesus because He lives in me!
Does Jesus live IN you Utilyan, you have a beautiful passion for God and I am pretty sure He does so next time you have a sin that is bothering you give it to the Holy Spirit that's in you immediately for immediate reconciliation God loves you like His own son, and I love you too brother so fear not! God see's you seated in Heaven with Him already and someday this will all just be a bad dream.


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"You affirm that in your doctrine Christ exists in perpetual brokenness on the cross; where is the victory of the empty tomb?"

What doctrine teaches that? Where do we even call his being on the cross a defeat rather than a victory?

We don't deny the resurrection. We celebrate his resurrection every Sunday along with every other day, not just Easter.

The Cross is the victory, For us who are saved IT IS THE POWER OF GOD.

Its impossible for me to look at a cross and not be in love with Jesus.


1 Corinthians 1
23But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;


1 Corinthians 1
18For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

1 Corinthians 2
2For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

Matthew 16
24Then Jesus said to His disciples, “If anyone wants to come after Me, he must deny himself, take up his cross, and follow Me.


Luke 22

19And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me. 20Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.

John 20
23If you forgive the sins of any, their sins [d]have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained.”


2 Corinthians 2
10To whom ye forgive any thing, I forgive also: for if I forgave any thing, to whom I forgave it, for your sakes forgave I it in the person of Christ; 11Lest Satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices.

Nothing wrong being forgiven the way Jesus intends, Its kind of built in to the trust/faith of Jesus.


The #1 thing that draws me to the eucharist is not scripture, its the command of DO THIS in the eucharist. We do it for the same motive you read IN scripture. They didn't pull out a bible and say hold on guys the book says we got to do this.

They tell you the motive in scripture,

1 Corinthians 11

23For I received from the Lord that which I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus, on the night when He was betrayed, took bread; 24and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, “This is My body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of Me.” 25In the same way He also took the cup after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood; do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me.” 26For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until He comes.

No one says hold on Paul.....where is that in this here bible. No one says I don't need to put this new sin you got going here Paul.....i have Jesus all the time.



Now get this Paul says:
1 Corinthians 11
33So then, my brothers and sisters, when you come together to eat, wait for one another. 34If anyone is hungry, have him eat at home, so that you do not come together for judgment. As to the remaining matters, I will give instructions when I come.

If you are hungry for food go eat at home. Well what are we eating here?


1 Corinthians 11

20Therefore when you come together it is not to eat the Lord’s Supper, 21for when you eat, each one takes his own supper first; and one goes hungry while another gets drunk. 22What! Do you not have houses in which to eat and drink? Or do you despise the church of God and shame those who have nothing? What am I to say to you? Shall I praise you? In this I do not praise you.

Heres a hint not here to eat the Lord's Supper. You came to eat food go home and eat.


1 Corinthians 11

27Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy way, shall be guilty of the body and the blood of the Lord. 28But a person must examine himself, and in so doing he is to eat of the bread and drink of the cup. 29For the one who eats and drinks, eats and drinks judgment to himself if he does not properly recognize the [p]body. 30For this reason many among you are weak and sick, and a number [q]are asleep. 31But if we judged ourselves rightly, we would not be judged. 32But when we are judged, we are disciplined by the Lord so that we will not be condemned along with the world.

 

You may have to research what a Catholic means by Prevenient Grace, its not the Arminian definition, its far older definition.


"That wasn't first question that I asked though, and I will ask you; do you think every person from creation until now has been given the opportunity to choose Christ?"

Yes I think a person God given good conscience, God speaks directly to every person.

Romans 2

14For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: 15Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another


Have you ever once as a unbeliever followed your good conscience?'

Even children who never even heard of God can be sincerely and absolutely sorry or do what is right.

 

Thank you! Someone has finally answered my first question. Romans 2 "when the Gentiles who do not have the law" Paul is speaking about saved spirit filled Gentiles; the only way to have the law written on your heart is because you are living in the new covenant, so this is not backing up your presumption that every person throughout time has been given the gospel and like I've said and I will repeat that's what the great commission is about, getting out the gospel. Prevenient grace says everyone's is given a choice, but everyone hasn't been given a choice and so free will hasn't been honored, and you base your entire doctrine on it.
For example were the Mayans thousands of years ago given a choice to follow Christ? Are you really going say yes to that?

Arguing about the holy Eucharist with the Catholics is much harder so it's gonna take me a lot longer to prepare your answer on that one


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I hate the cross, but I Love my Lord who hung upon it 2,000+ years ago with my sin and the sins of the faithful to that point. The cross represents my sin and what I did to Jesus personally. Christ's blood paid the price for all my sin there, because only His blood can make us pure, and according to the law almost all things are purified with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no remission. Your system says we have to continually take our sin to the cross to be clean, but by Christ's willing sacrifice we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once.
Your priests stand ministering daily and offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. But Christ, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool. For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.
But the Holy Spirit also witnesses to us; for after He had said before,
“This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the LORD: I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them,” then He adds, “Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.” Now where there is remission of these, there is no longer an offering for sin.
The continual sin offering has been abolished...
My Lord was taken down from that cross and laid in a borrowed tomb, and when my savior was resurrected I was resurrected with Him but my sin was as gone as the cross was. There are nail prints in Christ's body but the nails are gone.


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Yes even Mayans thousands of years ago. Its less complicated if you can reconcile Jesus is absolutely God. To follow God is to follow Christ.

1 Corinthians 4
4My conscience is clear, but that does not make me innocent. It is the Lord who judges me. 5Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait until the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of the heart. At that time each will receive their praise from God.



Luke 10

25And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? 26He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? 27And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. 28And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live. 29But he, willing to justify himself, said unto Jesus, And who is my neighbour?

30And Jesus answering said, A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, which stripped him of his raiment, and wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead. 31And by chance there came down a certain priest that way: and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side. 32And likewise a Levite, when he was at the place, came and looked on him, and passed by on the other side. 33But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was: and when he saw him, he had compassion on him, 34And went to him, and bound up his wounds, pouring in oil and wine, and set him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him. 35And on the morrow when he departed, he took out two pence, and gave them to the host, and said unto him, Take care of him; and whatsoever thou spendest more, when I come again, I will repay thee. 36Which now of these three, thinkest thou, was neighbour unto him that fell among the thieves? 37And he said, He that shewed mercy on him. Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.



We call this guy the Good Samaritan, would you just call him the Damned Samaritan because he not a Christian?

Look at what this Lawyer is pushing for. He is trying to make an exclusive capacity, That only they themselves can love neighbor and the only thing that counts for a neighbor is something like himself.

Under your own rules you would say this NON-CHRISTIAN hated Samaritan is damned.

Instead Jesus uses this alien as the exemplar of Loving God and Loving Neighbor.


You can pray to God to send you back in time to preach to Mayans if it troubles you. Truth is that's one of billions of solutions we might consider comprehendible, you can count on God for plenty more that are not.

As Jesus says NOTHING is IMPOSSIBLE with GOD.

There is no condition I can throw that makes me better, more holy, more deserving of heaven, on anyone else especially some knowledge or Gnosticism.

If you can understand we are not better than those Mayans you can come a long way.



Paul makes it clear that the conscience can ACCUSE THEM
Romans 2

12For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; 13(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. 14For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: 15Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another 16In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.


If this is just for saved people please point out the "saved damn folks" who will perish.

It doesn't say their good conscience proves they are saved. But that conscience is bearing witness.

In other words on judgement Some atheist's conscience will directly accuse him of doing evil, his own good conscience.

When its all said and done we have to come clean and spill all the beans.

The guy who cares about others, the one who loves everyone on earth. The guy who's heaven is knowing all he cares for are safe, rather than a personal glorified disneyland. The one who's own hell has nothing to do with whats done with his own soul, but what happens to those he cares for. He only suffers when those he cares for suffer. He even cares for those who are evil or enemies. His very name is he loves his family. He is always going to throw a wrench in the plans of what is evil no matter how great or powerful. He's gonna save the Mayans too.

 

Interesting,so you believe that Romans 2:14 shows that God has written His law on all peoples hearts from creation and that when I interpret this as a reference to the institution of the New Covenant I am wrong?
Jeremiah 31:30-34 says that God will write His Laws on Israel's and Judah's heart at the New Covenant (after the Cross) but evidently Christ had a covenant with the Gentiles long before this?

Then again in verse 25 until the end of the chapter Paul is still discussing these same Gentiles and saying that their hearts are circumcised by the (Holy) Spirit so has God written His Laws on people's hearts throughout time and indwelt people all along as well?
This verse specifically I would call the brother of verse 2:14;
V29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God. NKJV
You believe verse 14 and 29 are talking about people throughout humanity instead of talking about spirit filled Christian Gentiles?
I'm sorry but if you truly think that, I have nothing more to say to you about those verses and I'm just going to have to leave it alone.

Samaritans were considered half breeds but we're part of the Jewish nation. They Intermarried with Gentiles but they weren't considered Gentiles, more like second-class citizens. The woman at the well was a Samaritan.
Christ came to save the nation of Israel to include the Samaritans. If the nation of Israel could not transition from following Moses to following Jesus they would die in their self righteousness.
The Samaritan Jew had compassion for his brother I'll give you that but it's not an example of a person outside of God's influence or a gentile having compassion.

No doubt if you go to gentile nations you will find compassionate people, so is that all that matters; try to do good and to be good and God will surely let you in to heaven because He must've taught you to be that way right?
Being a Christian really doesn't matter as long as you're a nice person even if your nation is in to idol worship and human sacrifice or polygamy… at least you worship the unknown God in your heart along with the others. How about blasphemy; the muslim nations produce tons of good people, They don't need the gospel they're a gospel onto themselves… Actually they wouldn't chop off Christians heads or throw you in prison for preaching the gospel if they knew us better, and what about the Koran there's a lot of good things in there maybe I should read that too?
So man is intrinsically good and wide is the path leads to heaven and narrow is the path leads to destruction?
Do you believe in "Universalism" Utilyan?


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"Actually they wouldn't chop off Christians heads or throw you in prison for preaching the gospel if they knew us better, and what about the Koran there's a lot of good things in there maybe I should read that too?"

We've chopped more heads off even worst for people not being Christian even ourselves. We've tortured, drowned, burned people alive.

Samaritans desecrated the temple, they were unforgivably lower than dirt. The entire point was against this religious bigotry that we were superior to others. God has the final judgement on all souls, he knows their mind and hearts.

If the good Samaritan story were given again you'd probably get the GOOD MUSLIM today to match the shock value.

Maybe you should read the Koran even if its just to understand people instead of vilifying them.
Look at how Paul handles idolatrous pagans:
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Acts 17
16Now while Paul waited for them at Athens, his spirit was stirred in him, when he saw the city wholly given to idolatry. 17Therefore disputed he in the synagogue with the Jews, and with the devout persons, and in the market daily with them that met with him. 18Then certain philosophers of the Epicureans, and of the Stoicks, encountered him. And some said, What will this babbler say? other some, He seemeth to be a setter forth of strange gods: because he preached unto them Jesus, and the resurrection. 19And they took him, and brought him unto Areopagus, saying, May we know what this new doctrine, whereof thou speakest, is? 20For thou bringest certain strange things to our ears: we would know therefore what these things mean. 21(For all the Athenians and strangers which were there spent their time in nothing else, but either to tell, or to hear some new thing.)

Paul Before the Areopagus

22Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious. 23For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you. 24God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; 25Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things; 26And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; 27That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us: 28For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring. 29Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device. 30And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: 31Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

32And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked: and others said, We will hear thee again of this matter. 33So Paul departed from among them. 34Howbeit certain men clave unto him, and believed: among the which was Dionysius the Areopagite, and a woman named Damaris, and others with them.
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We see Paul here not only preaching to Pagans he starts quoting PAGAN SCRIPTURE their own poems, songs or psalms. , he pulls from the Poem of Zues, That they are children of God and God wants them to search for him even though God was not far from any of them. That God wants all of them to repent.

Would you admonish Paul for studying pagan religions and quoting their scriptures?


Look at what he doesn't do, he doesn't go to source bias against them, he learns from them.

When I want to know what Muslims believe, I ask Muslims. When I want to know what Jews believe, I ask Jews.
I'm not going to ask a bible fundamentalist what Buddhist believe. I ask Buddhists.

If you think asking Nazis what Jews believe is a great idea, then asking Protestants what Catholics believe sounds good too.

If I asked Jehovah's witness about your faith they might say one's organization is ultimately under the devil's control. Or some SDA would say if you worship on Sunday one is in league with the devil.

Thursday night bible studies at a Baptist showed me subliminal demons on the cover of Jehovah witness magazines.

I have studied from all religions. JWs are so devoted, Mormons are SO POLITE AND KIND, Muslims are so warm, Buddhist are so calm, Catholic ninjas are so crazy , Baptists who know how to dance. SDAs who go TUBING in river.

In all of them you can find Saints who would get along with each other just fine, In all of them you can find the combative religious bigot who thinks his way is the only way.

We don't have to be combative with each other.

2 timothy 2

24The Lord’s bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, skillful in teaching, patient when wronged, 25with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth,

 

"So man is intrinsically good and wide is the path leads to heaven and narrow is the path leads to destruction?"
How wide and narrow the path is obvious. If I wanted to only do wrong in God's eyes aside from remorse and guilt being evil is not that hard at all.

Every single good act has God as its source. And if there is a "GOOD" act that does not have God as its source, we just call that evil. Jesus was challenged for the motives of doing Good too.

Mark 3

20And the multitude cometh together again, so that they could not so much as eat bread. 21And when his friends heard of it, they went out to lay hold on him: for they said, He is beside himself. 22And the scribes which came down from Jerusalem said, He hath Beelzebub, and by the prince of the devils casteth he out devils. 23And he called them unto him, and said unto them in parables, How can Satan cast out Satan? 24And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. 25And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand. 26And if Satan rise up against himself, and be divided, he cannot stand, but hath an end. 27No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind the strong man; and then he will spoil his house.



"Do you believe in "Universalism" Utilyan?"

There is a hell. I suppose if there was not a fall or before any fall It "was" universalism.

It certainly can't be a universalism now.

I think your asking if I believe in the end will everyone be saved?

I'm not allowed to make judgements......but....

My diabolical side hopes not, This Jesus guy gives me a lot of trouble. Nothing would completely irk me more than if God saves everyone. I would grind my teeth broken and cry if God saved everyone. At least give us one damned soul.

This God fellah he loves underdogs and love to pull a upset and twist here and there. I heard he was a good teacher even smarter than a 2nd grade teacher, I heard he is heroic, can even save a cat stuck on a tree.

I don't know saving everyone?.......he can't handle all that work can he? He ain't got these thunderous guns like I got.

We're talking roughly saves 15% of all souls. If I had complete faith and trust in God however, if I saw him face to face, It would be hard to convince me we were ever in any trouble at all.

 

Well I guess we're just going to have to agree to disagree, but I think in your view Christ didn't come to save humanity He just came to visit


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Cite this teaching you say I have. You don't want to learn the Jewish faith from Nazis.

One of the neato things about Catholics is you got a Catechism where you can directly point at their beliefs and say....SEE.

"Your priests stand ministering daily and offering repeatedly the same sacrifices"

Our first catholic priest Jesus Christ he had the eucharist BEFORE dying on the cross. Was it a separate sacrifice when Jesus did it himself? Was it a separate sacrifice when Paul does communion?

So the prophecy cited IN YOUR BIBLE is it a LIE?

“Assemble on the Lord’s day, and break bread and offer the Eucharist; but first make confession of your faults, so that your sacrifice may be a pure one. Anyone who has a difference with his fellow is not to take part with you until he has been reconciled, so as to avoid any profanation of your sacrifice [Matt. 5:23–24]. For this is the offering of which the Lord has said, ‘Everywhere and always bring me a sacrifice that is undefiled, for I am a great king, says the Lord, and my name is the wonder of nations’ [Mal. 1:11, 14]” (Didache 14 [A.D. 70]).

“God speaks by the mouth of Malachi, one of the twelve [minor prophets], as I said before, about the sacrifices at that time presented by you: ‘I have no pleasure in you, says the Lord, and I will not accept your sacrifices at your hands; for from the rising of the sun to the going down of the same, my name has been glorified among the Gentiles, and in every place incense is offered to my name, and a pure offering, for my name is great among the Gentiles . . . [Mal. 1:10–11]. He then speaks of those Gentiles, namely us [Christians] who in every place offer sacrifices to him, that is, the bread of the Eucharist and also the cup of the Eucharist” (Dialogue with Trypho the Jew 41 [A.D. 155]).


“He took from among creation that which is bread, and gave thanks, saying, ‘This is my body.’ The cup likewise, which is from among the creation to which we belong, he confessed to be his blood. He taught the new sacrifice of the new covenant, of which Malachi, one of the twelve [minor] prophets, had signified beforehand: ‘You do not do my will, says the Lord Almighty, and I will not accept a sacrifice at your hands. For from the rising of the sun to its setting my name is glorified among the Gentiles, and in every place incense is offered to my name, and a pure sacrifice; for great is my name among the Gentiles, says the Lord Almighty’ [Mal. 1:10–11]. By these words he makes it plain that the former people will cease to make offerings to God; but that in every place sacrifice will be offered to him, and indeed, a pure one, for his name is glorified among the Gentiles” (Against Heresies 4:17:5 [A.D. 189]).


Malachi 1

11For from the rising of the sun even to its setting, My name shall be great among the nations, and in every place frankincense is going to be offered to My name, and a grain offering that is pure; for My name shall be great among the nations,” says the LORD of armies.


Here is a link to catechism section on Eucharist
Catechism of the Catholic Church - The sacrament of the Eucharist

 

Looking back at things you have said and things I know about Catholic doctrine;
You said God by the Holy Spirit throughout time and humanity wrote God's laws on people's hearts per Romans ch 2 to support your claim that everyone everywhere throughout time is given a choice to follow God (prevenient grace would require this if everyone has freewill)
You said in so many words that you just have to be a good person and God will accept you into Heaven, your goodness showing that God has written His laws on your heart, and it really doesn't matter what faith you espouse.

I say that Paul is talking about new covenant Christians in Romans chapter 2
Which if I am correct means nothing that you have said is grounded in the truth.

You said that the your Eucharist is sacrificed all over the world all the time,
and though you haven't come out and said it that I recall, it is sacrificed for venial sin making it a "sin offering" and Christ's sacrifice abolished the sin offering per Hebrews 10:17. Christ says as often as you eat of this do this in remembrance of me He doesn't say do this for the remittance of sin. When you say we still need to be purged of sin that accumulate after baptism you miss the point of the new covenant.
So there's no confusion this is what Wikipedia says concerning the Sacrifice of Mass.

As defined by the Church at the Council of Trent, in the Mass, "The same Christ who offered himself once in a bloody manner on the altar of the cross, is present and offered in an unbloody manner.” The Church describes the Holy Mass as "the source and summit of the Christian life". It teaches that the sacramental bread and wine, through consecration by an ordained priest, become the sacrificial body, blood, soul, and divinity of Christ as THE SACRIFICE ON CALVARY MADE TRULY PRESENT ONCE AGAIN ON THE ALTER.

You say you take your sins to the cross and you eat the Eucharist to be close to God and I say I take my sin directly to God through the Holy Spirit inside me so I always have His direct presence.
(Some of the things you have said I might be remembering from different posts in different topics)

Hebrews 1:3 says that Jesus purged our sins and then sat down after he completed that process showing it was a done deal.
You say Jesus is still hanging on the cross and the job is never done.
Hebrews 4:16 says let us come boldly to the throne of grace, it doesn't say let us come boldly to the cross.

5:9 Christ is my perfect Priest, where you say in your doctrine that there are other priests.

6:1-6 if someone were to fall away, they can't be renewed to repentance because it's like crucifying Christ again. Paraphrased

Your system says Christ never left the cross so though you continually sacrifice Him for sin you (when I say "you" I mean you as in the Catholics) say it's the same cross and the same sacrifice so it's ok, but these verses say you can't repent and be covered by the blood again because it would be like crucifying Christ again, and you can't crucify someone again unless they have been taken down from the cross BTW...so this takes for granted that Christ isn't on the cross anymore.
This also speaks to a system of sin remediation because if you are to
lay again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment, (for the remediation of sin) you would have to accomplish these things in a corporate setting.

7:22, 23. Your priests die, but my Priest never dies

7:27 My Priest is perfect and doesn't need another sin sacrifice but yours continue to offer sin sacrifices for themselves and your patrons. (to be clear the only sacrifice that your system does that I disagree with is the sin sacrifice; sacrifices of praise or prayer or other non-sin related sacrifices are good)

8:1 My God is seated on the right hand of God and not still hanging on a cross.

8:6 My Priest brought a better covenant, but you say that the tools of that covenant (the Holy Spirit writing the law of love on our hearts) has always happened per your explanation of Romans 2.

9:14 how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
The last time I saw a reference to dead works was in chapter 6 above, and so if you doubted that dead works require Christ's sacrifice, and that can happen only once, here is your answer.
If you are thinking that Christ's initial sacrifice covers your your dead works sin, but you need the same sacrifice (your way around saying you are re-crucifying Him) to cover any repeated sin after the fact, I would wonder why you are trying to "renew repentance"? I think it's because you think Christ's blood purifies the sin and not the sinner? It's like the sin has a separate existence and it needs to be purified, but like I said somewhere the blood covers ME and if I come out from under that covering, the blood can't be spilled for me again because the blood isn't available anymore since Christ isn't bleeding still...
9:25 not that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood of another— He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world;
What is the difference between saying Christ would have to suffer multiple times, or saying Christ has been in continual sacrifice and suffering? A lot, and I think it's a horrible morbid thing to think either way.

Heb 10:10 , Christ's body offered once
,12 One sacrifice for sin forever
,14 by One offering He perfects us forever
,16 putting His laws on our hearts by the Spirit) is a new thing that hasn't happened before.
,17, 18 no longer a need for a sin sacrifice since God doesn't remember my sin
,19 ,20 I myself can enter into the Holiest of Holies wow! ...I don't need your priests, I am part of His body, His flesh, and I am with Him behind the veil.
,26 it was going so great and just 10 verses ago it was said I don't need a sacrifice, now it says if I willfully sin i am doomed!

Heb 10:17, 18 then he adds,
“I will remember their sins and their lawless deeds no more.”
Where there is forgiveness of these, there is no longer any offering for sin.— NASB

This verse doesn't say they don't have sin and don't need a sacrifice, it says (indirectly) that the sacrifice was made and because if it God ignores the sin.
In contrast:

Heb 10:26, 27: For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries— NASB

In the space of 10 versus the writer says twice that there is no more sacrifice for sin. The first time in vs. 18 it is said in a positive way and the second in vs. 27 it is said in a negative way, but in either case it proves that Christ was the last sacrifice for sin. To me 10:26, 27 sounds like the writer is telling them "if you keep doing these rituals (go on sinning deliberately) after I've told you what you're doing is wrong (You received the knowledge of the truth) you're going to be judged for it.

Heb 10:39 But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who have faith and preserve their souls.— NASB

In 10:39 the writer points out that they have faith and this differentiates them from the others who shrink back and are destroyed. If they ignored his teachings and continued to use rituals in an attempt to remove their sin they would be those that are shrinking back into their old ways that the Hebrews were used to. Two different types of people, two different reasons why there is no longer a sacrifice for sin. The first reason is because you have faith and God chooses not to remember your sins, and the second reason is that God no longer excepts any other sacrifice other than Jesus Christ, and that covers you once.

Backtrack to 10:19
Therefore, brethren, having boldness to enter the Holiest by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way which He consecrated for us, through the veil, that is, His FLESH, and having a High Priest over the house of God, let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith,

Here you might think this is some reference to eating the Eucharist except your Eucharist only takes you back to the cross where when I consume Christ the Holy Spirit fills my heart with His Words and I am transformed forever into part of Jesus! Now, as part of the body of Christ I can go WITH Jesus into the Holy of Holies! I know you have read John 6:63

It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.

Jesus said this right after He told His disciples who had never believed and ended up leaving Him that they had to eat and drink Him. I think Christ actually wanted them to leave to tell you the truth so He made this audacious comment so they would, but that's just an assumption...

Notice the Spirit and the Word gives life; wow! that sounds just like Paul in Romans 2 talking about the Spirit and the Words...

Heb 12:2 Christ despised the Cross

I have consumed Christ's Words and His Holy Spirit lives in me so I will live forever with Him.
I crucify my life for Christ, I don't crucify Christ for my life.

 

I am bringing this from our other arguments so it can be shown attached to the above argument


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And this is part of La Granges sixth post that I quoted thinking for some reason it would be a good idea to argue the Eucharist with a Catholic, oops I guess though that prevenient grace and discussion on a sanctification process has relevance since a question about free will is involved


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