37818
Well-Known Member
You did not say anything meaningful.
Acts of the Apostles 16:31.
And
Ephesians 2:8.
Do.
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General Redemption.
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Acts of the Apostles 16:31.
And
Ephesians 2:8.
Do.
37818
Well-Known Member
What do you think I am wrestling with? I firmly believe that Christ paid for the sins of the whole world. And secured salvation of those who believe in Him, John 6:47.
General Redemption....
Is it actual redemption? for who?
Does it Redeem? or is something needed to be added to it.
Or only potential? It does not save anyone unless it gets added to?
Who are the objects? particular people?
salvation is the gift in eph2...repentance and faith are grace gifts that are part of that salvation.
Acts 16 saying to believe does not address the issue in anyway.
He did not pay for every single persons sin, or they would not go into second death.
I asked you to explain jn6 :37....not 47,
here it is again;
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me;
and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
Who was given by the Father to the Son?
[those given will not be cast out]
37818
Well-Known Member
Within the general atonement is the particular atonement specifically for whom Christ came to save. Those outside the particular atonement will be in John Owen's own words be "deeper damned" because of the general "redemption." - see To The Reader in. Owen's book.
thanks for your response.
Both verses support God doing the work. Faith is the effect of God working so that a person believes.
Why do you argue for man being the cause of his own salvation?
God saves by grace. Faith is an effect of God choosing to save.
“You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you.” John 15:6
“Knowing, brethren beloved by God, His choice of you,” 1 Thessalonians 1:4
“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I have appointed you a prophet to the nations.” Jeremiah 1:5
“So, as those who have been chosen of God, holy and beloved, put on a heart of compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience; bearing with one another, and forgiving each other, whoever has a complaint against anyone; just as the Lord forgave you, so also should you.” Colossians 3:12-13
“Paul, a bondservant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, for the faith of those chosen of God and the knowledge of the truth which is according to godliness.” Titus 1:1
“Who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity” 2 Timothy 1:9
“Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him.” Ephesians 1:3
“But when God, who had set me apart even from my mother’s womb and called me through His grace, was pleased to reveal His Son in me so that I might preach Him among the Gentiles.” Galatians 1:15-16
“In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.” Ephesians 1:4
“You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you.” John 15:6
“Knowing, brethren beloved by God, His choice of you,” 1 Thessalonians 1:4
“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I have appointed you a prophet to the nations.” Jeremiah 1:5
“So, as those who have been chosen of God, holy and beloved, put on a heart of compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience; bearing with one another, and forgiving each other, whoever has a complaint against anyone; just as the Lord forgave you, so also should you.” Colossians 3:12-13
“Paul, a bondservant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, for the faith of those chosen of God and the knowledge of the truth which is according to godliness.” Titus 1:1
“Who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity” 2 Timothy 1:9
“Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him.” Ephesians 1:3
“But when God, who had set me apart even from my mother’s womb and called me through His grace, was pleased to reveal His Son in me so that I might preach Him among the Gentiles.” Galatians 1:15-16
“In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.” Ephesians 1:4
Attachments
In summary, faith and repentance are Divine gifts of free and sovereign grace (Acts 11:18; Eph. 2:4–10), bestowed at regeneration (Jn. 3:3, 5–8), and immediately evidenced in the life and experience.
In conversion, one not only believes and repents, but he enters into a state of believing and a state of being repentant which extends throughout his Christian experience. It is important to note that repentance comes forth from a believing heart and mind. It is vital to understand that repentance and faith are not works by which we earn or merit our salvation. Although we freely and willingly repent and believe, we are graciously enabled to do so. The first step toward thinking that repentance or faith can merit one’s standing before God is taken when it is thought that salvation in general and justification in particular is “because of faith” rather than “by or through faith.” This is the watershed between salvation by grace and salvation by works. Are you resting in Christ or in what you have done? Salvation is by grace, not by performance.
from A Baptist Catechism with Commentary, by W.R, Downing
ibid; pg 172
The Nature of Saving Faith. This can be found in the following particulars: faith consists of a belief, an assent to truth and its implications, a corresponding commitment—a trust or reliance upon its object. It is the gift of God, graciously imparted at regeneration. This makes saving faith unique and gives to it its distinct, objective character. Although it is the gift of God, faith is exercised by the individual as his own.
Mere human trust, however, is entirely subjective, and possibly without any objective character, and so would necessarily vary from one person to another.
As the gift of God, saving faith reflects that unique faith described in Scripture and remains identical in character for each and every true convert. Faith necessitates a corresponding kind of life or consistent expression, i.e., Christian faithfulness. One enters into a life of belief and trust.
When considering the nature of saving faith, we must carefully note that not all faith is saving faith. About this, the Scriptures are very clear (Matt. 13:5–6, 20–21; Lk. 8:14; Jn. 2:23–25). The attitude of many within modern evangelical Christianity is that all faith is saving faith, and that a person’s profession of faith is to be taken at face value and never questioned.
Further, it is assumed that saving faith is synonymous with mere human trust, and that such faith is, indeed, the product of our own personalities. Every person, it is assumed, has the faith to believe in Christ, the only issue is where he directs such faith.
The Function of Saving Faith. Faith is instrumental, not causative, in our salvation. In other words, we are not saved “because of faith,” but rather “through” or “by” faith (Eph. 2:8–10). This is a critical matter. This is, indeed,
174
the watershed between salvation by grace and salvation by works [innate human ability]. To be saved because of faith would necessarily mean that such faith would be mere human trust, which would stand opposed to the very principle and reality of Divine grace
The Nature of Saving Faith. This can be found in the following particulars: faith consists of a belief, an assent to truth and its implications, a corresponding commitment—a trust or reliance upon its object. It is the gift of God, graciously imparted at regeneration. This makes saving faith unique and gives to it its distinct, objective character. Although it is the gift of God, faith is exercised by the individual as his own.
Mere human trust, however, is entirely subjective, and possibly without any objective character, and so would necessarily vary from one person to another.
As the gift of God, saving faith reflects that unique faith described in Scripture and remains identical in character for each and every true convert. Faith necessitates a corresponding kind of life or consistent expression, i.e., Christian faithfulness. One enters into a life of belief and trust.
When considering the nature of saving faith, we must carefully note that not all faith is saving faith. About this, the Scriptures are very clear (Matt. 13:5–6, 20–21; Lk. 8:14; Jn. 2:23–25). The attitude of many within modern evangelical Christianity is that all faith is saving faith, and that a person’s profession of faith is to be taken at face value and never questioned.
Further, it is assumed that saving faith is synonymous with mere human trust, and that such faith is, indeed, the product of our own personalities. Every person, it is assumed, has the faith to believe in Christ, the only issue is where he directs such faith.
The Function of Saving Faith. Faith is instrumental, not causative, in our salvation. In other words, we are not saved “because of faith,” but rather “through” or “by” faith (Eph. 2:8–10). This is a critical matter. This is, indeed,
174
the watershed between salvation by grace and salvation by works [innate human ability]. To be saved because of faith would necessarily mean that such faith would be mere human trust, which would stand opposed to the very principle and reality of Divine grace
Dave G
Well-Known Member
Amen.
But what does this describe in the below?
" And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard [us]: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul." ( Acts of the Apostles 16:14 ).
Does this not describe the new birth first, and Lydia's hearing of faith second?
The Lord opened her heart first, so that she then "attended" ( listened intently ) to Paul's words.
She then believed on the Lord Jesus Christ as preached by Paul.
So, what was the cause of Lydia hearing God's words?
God opening her heart.
Why did He do it?
Because she was "of God ( John 8:43-47 ), and because she was chosen in Christ from the foundation of the world ( Ephesians 1:4 ) and predestinated to her adoption as a son ( daughter ) of the living God ( Ephesians 1:5 ).
She was chosen to her salvation through ( not by ) the sanctification of her spirit, and her belief of the truth ( 2 Thessalonians 2:13 ).
See also Romans 8:28-30, which answers the question as to why a person is justified by the blood of Christ...
because they were foreknown and predestinated to their being conformed to the image of His Son and later called by His power.
Just as Lydia was.
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Read Ephesians 2:1-9 because it will show you how you are misunderstanding verse 8.
Why are you lifting up humans as the ones who cause faith, which effects God to save them?
Dave G
Well-Known Member
Again, amen.
But I see a difference in being saved through faith ( meaning that faith is involved, or that it is associated with salvation ) and being saved by it ( meaning that a person's act of faith is what saves them, eternally, and can be said to have influenced God to save them ).
As to the OP, if redemption is general, then all men have been redeemed out of the hand of the enemy and no one will suffer an eternity in Hell for their sins, as they have all been atoned for;
In other words, Christ has met the demands of God the Father,
and that person, whether or not they believe on Christ for the forgiveness of their sins, has already been declared legally free from the penalty of those same sins...
Those "wages", which are death ( Romans 3:23 ).
Stated from another angle, if the atonement is general, then all of mankind's sins are paid for.
That is what the cross did...
It actually made payment ( "propitiation", or appeasement, 1 John 2:2 ) for sin.
His blood was shed for a people, and that blood, in God's eyes, bought that person ( Colossians 2:13-14, Psalms 107:2, 1 Peter 1:18, Revelation 5:9, Acts of the Apostles 20:28 );
Redeeming them out of God's wrath and judgment and from the power of Satan.
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37818
Well-Known Member
". . . shall be saved, . . ." Follows believing in Christ! Faith precedes salvation! It's denial is an issue. But not the subject of this thread.
37818
Well-Known Member
Is a strawman argument.
37818
Well-Known Member
Another strawman argument.
This verse does not describe the unseen work of the Holy Spirit, which brings about salvation. Your conclusion is wrong because you ignore this;
8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
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