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Calvinism Fact Sheet #2, by Joel Barnes: Unconditional Election

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Iconoclast

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ad finitum said:
It is interesting that one would try to claim that this short, compact psalm creates a particularly defined category of people in the first verse and then renders them utterly irrelevant for the rest of the psalm. According to your interpretation, the verse could have been dropped and your interpretation of the Psalm would not be altered. Isn't that right? Is that what you think? God wrote something that wasn't needed. God gave us something superfluous?

Let us return to reality. Why do we think Paul quotes from this Psalm? Isn't it because Paul's own letter to the Romans speaks of these same fools in chapter 1? And doesn't Paul then turn this upon believers in chapter 2 who are doing the same thing, exchanging the truth for a faulty theology? Believers who choose to believe nonsense by exchange! So what then? Will those believers caught doing the same thing as the fool not also fall under judgement? Paul is giving us the answer to that question in chapter 3.
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Your desire to rewrite the scripture is not working except in your own mind.
Your understanding is off at most every point, but you are happy with it.
 
37818

37818

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Brightfame52 said:
Salvation is by Grace and not by works/conditions.
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So there is a condition that salvation is without works, without merit by the will of God, John 1:13, Matthew 7:21, 2 Peter 1:10, 2 Corinthians 13:5. That it is a gift, Romans 6:23, Ephesians 2:8.
 
ad finitum

ad finitum

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Iconoclast said:
Your desire to rewrite the scripture is not working except in your own mind.
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Rewriting scripture is what quoting out of context does, causing it to mean things that it's not actually saying. Which one of us was doing that?

Your understanding is off at most every point, but you are happy with it.
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I would be interested to understand from your vast knowledge of Biblical literature exactly where I didn't understand something. From what I can tell, I'm the only one posting in this thread why the full meaning of entire contexts forbids erroneous meanings derived from limited or zero context. Truly, I'm listening.
 
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Brightfame52

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ad finitum said:
Look, please. This is important. Romans 3:11 is a quote from Psalm 14, which says:

Pslam 14
The scoundrel has said in his heart,
"There is no God."
They corrupt, they make loathsome their acts.
There is none who does good.
The LORD from the heavens looked down
on the sons of humankind
to see, is there someone discerning,
someone seeking out God.
​
The word for "scoundrel/fool" in verse one is "NABAL". There was a man by that name in First Samuel with whom David and his men had dealings. All the verses after verse one describe a category of men who are just like him. As you keep reading, do you not get the sense that David is thinking about this man while he is writing? I sure do...

All turn astray,
altogether befouled.
There is none who does good.
There is not even one.
Do they not know,
all wrongdoers?
Devourers of my people devoured them like bread.
They did not call the LORD.
There did they sorely fear,
for God is with the righteous band.
In your plot against the poor you are shamed,
for the LORD is his shelter.
Oh, may from Zion come Israel's rescue
when the LORD restores His people's condition.
May Jacob exult,
May Israel rejoice.​

David had to deal with men like Nabal numerous times in his life. It is clear that Psalm 14 is not talking about "all humans under sin". In fact, it seems to be talking about a particular kind of human, a Nabal kind of human. The description fits Nabal himself. But he is not the only nabal David encountered.
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Doesn't change anything, man by nature doesn't seek after God.
 
37818

37818

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". . . Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience . . . ." Conditional election.
 
ad finitum

ad finitum

Active Member
Brightfame52 said:
Not if they are under sin. Paul knew men under sin dont seek after God Rom 3:11, he wrote it.
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Actually, David wrote it. Paul quotes David. Understanding what David wrote is the key. Psalm 14 is about the category of human called NABAL who devour God's people like bread. Not all "all the sons of men". By implication, that's at least 3 kinds of people in that psalm: Unbelievers who are NABAL; Unbelivers who are not NABAL; and God's people. The NABAL is the same kind of person described in Romans 1. Therefore, it is no accident that Paul quotes Psalm 14. Does Romans 1 claim that all men everywhere exchange the truth revealed to them by God's creation for a lie? No, it doesn't.

The breakdown in understanding seems to be that some think it's okay to proof-text, i.e. find some words in the Bible that say what sounds good in their ears, without respect for its context. All that matters is that the snipped words or phrases support what they like to think.

So when Paul quotes David, only the quoted sentences or phrases are analyzed. Since the proof-texter person thinks it's okay to proof-text, they think Paul is doing exactly that, proof-texting. So they refuse to seek an understanding of what Paul is quoting in its full context. They just look at the quoted text only. This causes the person who thinks proof-texting is okay to misinterpret both passages, the one quoting the other and the other passage as well. In doing this, they are twice-wrong.
 
ad finitum

ad finitum

Active Member
37818 said:
What does Romans 3:11 say about man?
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It says what Psalm 14 says about the category of man called NABAL (fool/worhtless) who claim within themselves, "No God." That's not what all unbelievers think. Some of them think there is a higher power but haven't settled upon who that might be, yet. Some of them never settle upon the answer, to their doom. Some are still searching, per Acts 17:27. Not all unbelievers fit the description of NABAL. Not all unbelievers "devour My people like bread". QED.
 
37818

37818

Well-Known Member
ad finitum said:
It says what Psalm 14 says about the category of man called NABAL (fool/worhtless) who claim within themselves, "No God." That's not what all unbelievers think. Some of them think there is a higher power but haven't settled upon who that might be, yet. Some of them never settle upon the answer, to their doom. Some are still searching, per Acts 17:27. Not all unbelievers fit the description of NABAL. Not all unbelievers "devour My people like bread". QED.
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Romans 3:10-11 and Romans 3:23.
 
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Brightfame52

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ad finitum said:
Actually, David wrote it. Paul quotes David. Understanding what David wrote is the key. Psalm 14 is about the category of human called NABAL who devour God's people like bread. Not all "all the sons of men". By implication, that's at least 3 kinds of people in that psalm: Unbelievers who are NABAL; Unbelivers who are not NABAL; and God's people. The NABAL is the same kind of person described in Romans 1. Therefore, it is no accident that Paul quotes Psalm 14. Does Romans 1 claim that all men everywhere exchange the truth revealed to them by God's creation for a lie? No, it doesn't.

The breakdown in understanding seems to be that some think it's okay to proof-text, i.e. find some words in the Bible that say what sounds good in their ears, without respect for its context. All that matters is that the snipped words or phrases support what they like to think.

So when Paul quotes David, only the quoted sentences or phrases are analyzed. Since the proof-texter person thinks it's okay to proof-text, they think Paul is doing exactly that, proof-texting. So they refuse to seek an understanding of what Paul is quoting in its full context. They just look at the quoted text only. This causes the person who thinks proof-texting is okay to misinterpret both passages, the one quoting the other and the other passage as well. In doing this, they are twice-wrong.
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Paul wrote it also when he quoted David, but in any case, man naturally under sin doesnt seek after God Rom 3:11.
 
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