They are indeed saved, but not due to them being innocent, nor having no sin natures, but due to the Cross of Christ providing to their account saving grace!
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False accusations.
- Thread starter 37818
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Scripture?
So, when Paul 'died' it was because God removed His saving grace, right?
Are you advocating that all people who are not under the law are therefore saved?
The context of Romans 7 gives you your answer.
Romans 7:1-14
Or do you not know, brothers—for I am speaking to those who know the law—that the law is binding on a person only as long as he lives? For a married woman is bound by law to her husband while he lives, but if her husband dies she is released from the law of marriage. Accordingly, she will be called an adulteress if she lives with another man while her husband is alive. But if her husband dies, she is free from that law, and if she marries another man she is not an adulteress. Likewise, my brothers, you also have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who has been raised from the dead, in order that we may bear fruit for God. For while we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death. But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code. What then shall we say? That the law is sin? By no means! Yet if it had not been for the law, I would not have known sin. For I would not have known what it is to covet if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.” But sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, produced in me all kinds of covetousness. For apart from the law, sin lies dead. I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin came alive and I died. The very commandment that promised life proved to be death to me. For sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me. So the law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good. Did that which is good, then, bring death to me? By no means! It was sin, producing death in me through what is good, in order that sin might be shown to be sin, and through the commandment might become sinful beyond measure. For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin.
37818
Well-Known Member
No. You are simply irrational. By your repeated falsehood, you do not even understand my view and why it cannot be Pelagian.
37818
Well-Known Member
No. We are conceived with the sin nature.
37818
Well-Known Member
I do not believe the text really teaches that. The translation translated what is plural as a singular. Romans 9:11, ". . . have done . . . ." Better, " . . . have practiced . . . ."
Are you coming off with yet another of your knee jerk accusations? You think maybe @37818 might've had you in mind when he started this thread?
Tell me the fault you find with this statement from post 58:
"Born innocent is not equivalent to being in Christ. Esau was born innocent but God hated him before he had any works to be judged by."
Try this one:
Born innocent is not equivalent to being in Christ. Jacob was born innocent but God loved him before he had any works to be judged by.
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Explain to me how this changes the point I was making.
"Born innocent is not equivalent to being in Christ. Esau was born innocent but God hated him before he had any works to be judged by."
God also loved Jacob before he had any works to be judged by. It's called election.
Not one human other than the incarnated Christ has been or is born innocent. To claim such a thing is to agree with Pelagian.
All humans are born in sin, corrupt by the very nature of Adam's curse. If God does not extend grace to the child in the womb, that child will die in sin.
Do we have a nature at birth estranged form God?
Believers baptism was also pelagian theology.
But Do they really? I thought God does it for them.
Jesus would have gotten touched by the fall, save for the Virgin Birth!
Nope
We are not then spiritually dead in sins and transgressions?
37818
Well-Known Member
Without a general redemption, yes.
Scripture please.
One more time:
"9 And I was alive apart from the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died; Ro 7
(no little babies in hell)"
Paul was 'alive' once, and then he 'died' (the letter kills). Want to explain that, backed up with some scripture?
37818
Well-Known Member
The notion that Romans 9:11 teaches they not yet born are innocent is Pelagian for the purpose of unconditional election. Nonetheless across the translations they all translate a plural in the singular, making that verse support a Pelagian interpertation. That plural is only used twice. First by Luke in Acts of the Apostles 19:19 and by Paul in Romans 9:11, the unborn not doings any good and evil. The plural does not exclude done in the singular baving good and evil. They had good and evil but not as a practice.
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