Featured Are miracles always instantaneous?

Any thoughts on the miracle of God removing the obsession of recovering alcoholics and addicts having the obsession to drink or use drugs removed over the process of working the twelve-steps? Which is based in scripture.

 

Okay, but what do you mean by it?

 

I know a preacher who when he got saved was a drug addict. He stayed on his knees until God took the desire for drugs completely away, and he's never had it since. That's a miracle, since only God could do it. Only God can reach down into the human heart and change it so completely in just a split second. 12 steps can't do that. It's a human process, and can work with someone who is not a believer in Christ.. A miracle is when God steps in. The word in the NT for "miracle" is usually "sign," often translated that way. So a miracle has to be a sign pointing to God.

 

"Miraculous proofreading."

Goes beyond the stated definition in this thread.

You don't remember writing it?

It is fairly recent.

 

Hello John,
Could you please clarify further when you say human process but call it a miracle. I thought a human process would be something providential and a miracle something instantaneous.
I am probably missing something here and not understanding fully, thanks.

 

No. Mark 11:12-25

 

I think I was unclear. What I meant was that when God does something miraculous (instantly taking away the addiction and desire for drugs, it is a miracle. People can then say with the Psalmist, " That they may know that this is thy hand; that thou, LORD, hast done it" (Ps. 109:27). The NT word "sign" points to the working of God.

On the other hand, a 12 Step cure that takes much time may be from God or it may not. If it is from God, it is providential, not a miracle. God's providence works through imperfect humans. If someone is not saved and goes through the 12 Step process and is cured, that may or may not be providential, depending on what happens afterward--is God eventually glorified, or is He not.

More clear? I hope so.

 

Nope, don't remember it. But assuming I did say it, it was hyperbole, not an allusion to a definite miracle. Proofreading is by definition not miraculous. In all of the proofreading I did many years ago professionally, and the proofreading I've done since (book-writing, grad papers, student papers, NT translation work), I've never once thought, "Oh, it was a miracle of God that I/they caught that mistake." That would be ridiculous.

 

Miraculous hyperbole?

 

Yes, thanks.

In another members post about Mark 11:12-25 today, would this be providential or miraculous in your opinion?

 

Commentators usually call this the only negative or destructive miracle Jesus ever did. I too believe it was a miracle. Mark's account does not tell how the tree withered, but Matthew says that it withered "immediately" (Matt. 21:19).

Now, this miracle was not called a "sign," since its purpose was not to point to His power and majesty, but to teach the disciples to pray. Therefore, whether it was instantaneous or not is not the point (though it was). The point is that we too can get answers to our prayers.

 

???

 

"Miraculous proofreading, it has to be. Wish I could have that done to our Japanese version."
Post #7
The "Psalm 12:6-7 thingie" used by KJVOs is false.

" ... it has to be", hyper pole flag flying I guess.

 

Aha. Thanks.

Well, it's still true. To get a perfect translation, there has to be a true miracle of one kind or another.

 

It could be perfect through God’s providence according to the way you explained it correct?

 

Amen! That is wonderful.

 

No, I do not believe that providence produces perfection. Once again, here are my theological definitions from this thread, Post #21:
From Strong's Systematic Theology:

"Providence is that continuous agency of God by which he makes all the events of the physical and moral universe fulfill the original design with which he created it" (Strong, p. 419).

"A miracle is an event palpable to the senses, produced for a religious purpose by the immediate agency of God; an event therefore which, though not contravening any law of nature, the laws of nature, if fully known, would not without this agency of God be competent to explain" (Strong, 117).

Now, in providence God works through human beings, and we are not perfect unless a miracle makes us so. Therefore, when the Scriptures were originally given, they were given by a miracle, and were perfect. I believe in all of my heart in verbal-plenary inspiration and inerrancy in the originals. And I can extent that to copies in the original language, so I get really tired at people who say, "Aha, you believe in inspiration in the originals, but you don't have them." (Neither does anyone have the handwritten mss. of the original KJV.) Or like Will Kinney, who insists that no one can find a perfect Bible anywhere but the KJV. I have an inerrant Bible in Hebrew & Aramaic Greek.

Now, something that my study of the Word of God taught me is that God has given preservation into the hands of humans. In the Old Testament it was the task of the priests to preserve the Word (Deut. 17:18, Ezek. 44:8 and 15, Mal. 2:7). Again, every king was to write out the Law for himself (Deut. 17:18).

In the NT, each believer is obligated to God to rightly study and learn God's Word (2 Tim. 2:15), and to hide it in his heart (Ps. 119:11). I call that human preservation. We can also preserve the Word of God by printing it, distributing it, preaching it, etc. But all of these are the actions of imperfect humans, therefore they are not perfect.

Back to the thought of perfection. If the KJV (or any other translation) is perfect, when and how did it happen? The "purified seven times" quote is a theory, but I've never yet seen anyone say when and how that happened in history.

 

I have yet to see the scripture evidence that supports any translation had same inspiration as the words recorded down by the Apostles and prophets of the Lord!

 

I am in agreement with you in that ONLY God can take away the obsession of addiction. However, you are showing you know little of the the 12 steps. The twelve steps are based on scripture and always have been. I can prove it if you like. That is precisely why they work. Read the 12 steps. You notice quickly that they don't work apart from God and they don't work without God stepping in. Again, read the Big Book of AA, it will become clear to you that you know little about 12 step recovery.

Not to be rude, but educate yourself. When the obsession to use and drink is lifted through working the 12 steps, it is a miracle from God. The program of AA makes it clear that 'God could and would if He were sought'. I honestly don't know of anyone who has genuinely overcome ( through God) the obsession that has not had an encounter with Christ.

Unfortunately, most people who have had the miracle of God 'reaching down into the human heart and changing it completely' do not have it happen in a split second. I have witnessed countless people on their knees begging God to do so in a split second and know of only a couple who have had it happen in the way you describe. Recovery from addiction is a miracle, people who have twenty and thirty years of recovery will tell you they had to go through the process of acknowledging that 'they couldn't', God could, and they 'had to let Him'. Take a look at the program of Celebrate Recovery. It is a Christ centered program based on the 12 Steps and has a tremendous success rate. Why? Because it requires a person to be a believer in Christ and work a program based on the scriptural principles that the 12 steps are based upon.

 

We obviously have different definitions of "miracle." I don't think you have quite grasped what I am saying. I am not saying that people are not helped through the 12 steps program, and I am not saying God does not use it. I am also saying that not everyone who is addicted will or should have an instantaneous miracle. That is kind of rare. Our own church uses the "Recovery Unanimous" (RU) program.

I also don't think you are understanding the distinction between "miracle" and "providential." Simply because I say 12 Steps does not produce miracles does not mean I am saying that God has not used it. God uses humans in non-miraculous providential ways as well as providing miracles when it is His will to do so. I praise the Lord for whoever is helped through 12 Steps. And it may or may not be providential or miraculous.