Are miracles always instantaneous?

[rlvaughn]

Since God is supernatural, and all he does involves a supernatural event. Creation and all he created, right down to your very thoughts are miracles.

If everything is a miracle, then nothing is a miracle, and no need for a distinguishing biblical word for it.

 

[1689Dave]

If everything is a miracle, then nothing is a miracle, and no need for a distinguishing biblical word for it.

If God causes everything to happen, everything is supernatural, and a miracle. You need to distinguish between his seemingly habitual events (laws of nature), and those that do not depend on secondary causes. It's all supernatural.

 

[rlvaughn]

If God causes everything to happen, everything is supernatural, and a miracle. You need to distinguish between his seemingly habitual events (laws of nature), and those that do not depend on secondary causes. It's all supernatural.

You need to distinguish between what the Bible calls miracles and what it does not. You are philosophizing to get terminology from your theology rather than considering the words of the Bible itself. The Bible calls things miracles to distinguish them from other things that are not called miracles. Does the Bible call seemingly habitual events (laws of nature) miracles? If so, where does it do so? I believe that God made and controls all things by his power and wisdom (e.g. the Lord hath his way in the whirlwind and in the storm, Nahum 1:3; he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust, Matthew 5:45; also Jeremiah 10:12, 51:15). It is no different (harder, easier) for God to make the sun come up on a regular schedule every day (Matthew 5:45), to make it go backward (Isaiah 38:8), or to make it stand still (Joshua 10:12-13). Yet the Bible distinguishes these kind of events in different ways so that everything is not considered a miracle, biblically speaking.

 

[1689Dave]

You need to distinguish between what the Bible calls miracles and what it does not. You are philosophizing to get terminology from your theology rather than considering the words of the Bible itself. The Bible calls things miracles to distinguish them from other things that are not called miracles. For example, does the Bible call seemingly habitual events (laws of nature) miracles? If so, where does it do so? I have no problem believing and do believe that God controls all of them by his power (e.g. the Lord hath his way in the whirlwind and in the storm, Nahum 1:3; he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust, Matthew 5:45). It is no different (harder, easier) for God to make the sun come up on a regular schedule every day (Matthew 5:45), to make it go backward (Isaiah 38:8), or to make it stand still (Joshua 10:12-13). Yet it seems to me the Bible distinguishes these kind of events in different ways so that everything is not considered a miracle, biblically speaking.

I said those events that evade secondary causes are also miracles. But how can we deny the miracle of creation and all it includes?

 

[rlvaughn]

I said those events that evade secondary causes are also miracles. But how can we deny the miracle of creation and all it includes?

Neither I, nor anyone else in this thread as far as I have noticed, is denying that. However, the things to which the Bible attaches the word miracle (or signs and wonders) are contrary to the usual and established course of things, deviations from the laws of nature (dead men rising, Red Sea dividing, loaves & fish multiplying), and such like. Where does the Bible attach the word miracle to the regular and usual course of nature?

 

[OnlyaSinner]

That was a series of individual miracles, not a single process miracle.

Would you treat the feeding of the 5,000 the same way? The Bible does not offer details, but it would be extra astounding if Jesus instantaneously turned 5 loaves and 2 fishes into a gigantic mound of food sufficient to feed many thousands, with leftovers. We weren't there of course, but the mention of baskets would perhaps point to instantaneous filling of them, probably multiple times as the disciples distributed food throughout the crowd.

 

[Yeshua1]

If God causes everything to happen, everything is supernatural, and a miracle. You need to distinguish between his seemingly habitual events (laws of nature), and those that do not depend on secondary causes. It's all supernatural.

the scriptures clearly teach to us that God at certain times and for a specific reason invaded His creation and bypassed natural ways things operated!

 

[John of Japan]

Would you treat the feeding of the 5,000 the same way? The Bible does not offer details, but it would be extra astounding if Jesus instantaneously turned 5 loaves and 2 fishes into a gigantic mound of food sufficient to feed many thousands, with leftovers. We weren't there of course, but the mention of baskets would perhaps point to instantaneous filling of them, probably multiple times as the disciples distributed food throughout the crowd.

Well, anything we say about how that miracle occurred is speculation, of course. I'm not against thinking of it as a continued miracle, taking the time of the whole meal. However, I've always thought of it as a series of smaller miracles. Peter takes some bread and fish out of his basket and gives it to a kid, then when he looks back in the basket there is the same amount. So that would be a series of 1000s of small miracles. So, I'm in agreement with the "multiple times" you mention, which would be a series of instantaneous miracles.

 

[Yeshua1]

Neither I, nor anyone else in this thread as far as I have noticed, is denying that. However, the things to which the Bible attaches the word miracle (or signs and wonders) are contrary to the usual and established course of things, deviations from the laws of nature (dead men rising, Red Sea dividing, loaves & fish multiplying), and such like. Where does the Bible attach the word miracle to the regular and usual course of nature?

yes, as John was very specific to those miracles being a sign to who Jesus is!

 

[Yeshua1]

Well, anything we say about how that miracle occurred is speculation, of course. I'm not against thinking of it as a continued miracle, taking the time of the whole meal. However, I've always thought of it as a series of smaller miracles. Peter takes some bread and fish out of his basket and gives it to a kid, then when he looks back in the basket there is the same amount. So that would be a series of 1000s of small miracles. So, I'm in agreement with the "multiple times" you mention, which would be a series of instantaneous miracles.

Think that we are agreeing on that, as I just would have a hard time accepting that for example jesus would say to someone they were now healed, but took days or weeks to manifest itself!

 

[1689Dave]

Neither I, nor anyone else in this thread as far as I have noticed, is denying that. However, the things to which the Bible attaches the word miracle (or signs and wonders) are contrary to the usual and established course of things, deviations from the laws of nature (dead men rising, Red Sea dividing, loaves & fish multiplying), and such like. Where does the Bible attach the word miracle to the regular and usual course of nature?

But it doesn't mention the miracle of creation. What if something is a miracle without being called such? Paul gave us a deeper understanding than the gospels alone ever could.

 

[Yeshua1]

But it doesn't mention the miracle of creation. What if something is a miracle without being called such? Paul gave us a deeper understanding than the gospels alone ever could.

John mentions the miracles jesus did as signs to himself, things that were outside the known and established physical laws!

 

[Alcott]

John mentions the miracles jesus did as signs to himself, things that were outside the known and established physical laws!

Not a direct quote from John, but that has to be close to my own definition. That's why I don't care t o hear people calling a lot of things "miracles"... recovering quickly from the flu, getting a needed job with better than expected pay and benefits, finding out one has just enough money in the bank to go on an upcoming mission trip.... these kind of things are not at all outside natural laws and processes.

 

[rlvaughn]

But it doesn't mention the miracle of creation. What if something is a miracle without being called such? Paul gave us a deeper understanding than the gospels alone ever could.

That's right. It doesn't. To clarify re my posts #63 and #65, I was trying to express general agreement with your points about who God is and what he does. However, I am not aware that the Bible ever speaks with the term miracle concerning the creation. That Christian writers or speakers may therefore choose not to use the term miracle when speaking of it does not make them any less amazed and blown away by an all-powerful God speaking and it is done, than someone who does use the term miracle.

The starting place on what to describe as a miracle, in my opinion, is to find out the kinds of things the Bible describes as miracles and then try to stay within that territory when calling things miracles.

 

[RighteousnessTemperance&]

That's right. It doesn't. To clarify my re my posts #63 and #65, I was trying to express general agreement with your points about who God is and what he does. However, I am not aware that the Bible ever speaks with the term miracle concerning the creation. That Christian writers or speakers may therefore choose not to use the term miracle when speaking of it does not make them any less amazed and blown away by an all-powerful God speaking and it is done, than someone who does use the term miracle.

The starting place on what to describe as a miracle, in my opinion, is to find out the kinds of things the Bible describes as miracles and then try to stay within that territory when calling things miracles.

Agreed. We might do well to re-establish the reasons for making these distinctions. (Feel free to add to this.) Signs and wonders were purposeful, namely witness to God’s leading to a larger group. They often served a dual purpose by bringing a special blessing, e.g., limited deliverance.

Creation, including life, would be a special ongoing case of miracle. That it exists, that we exist, does point to God in a powerful way. While it may not directly witness to his word, it certainly does witness to him. You’d have to be a devilishly clever philosopher who just doesn’t want to see, or under such influence, to miss it.

“The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork. Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge. There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard. Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world.” (Psalms 19:1-4a)

I well recall an evangelist telling of being in Africa. While retelling the story of creation, a woman who’d never heard it before spoke up, “I’ve always thought it must have been something like that.”

 

[SGO]

Really? Where in the Bible did Jesus miraculously print a book on paper? That's not a miracle in the Bible sense, though it may be one, the more broadly defined, in the English languages.

May I suggest that you need a Biblical definition of "miracle"? Here you go, one of the words used for "miracle" as defined by Friberg:

σημεῖον, ου, το (1) basically, as what serves as a pointer to aid perception or insight sign, mark, distinguishing characteristic; (2) as what distinguishes one person or thing from another sign, token, mark (LU 2.12; RO 4.11); (3) as a miraculous event contrary to the usual course of nature and intended as a pointer or means of confirmation, often used with τέρας (wonder) sign (MK 13.22); as a miraculous event resulting from personal action sign, miracle (JN 2.11; RV 13.13 )

Well you don't like it how God speaks to His children and makes new ones through a book made with paper and ink is ironic coming from a man of your profession.

 

[SGO]

Then how about this, of course it's NOT a miracle:

For in him we live, and move, and have our being;
Acts 17:28

 

[1689Dave]

That's right. It doesn't. To clarify re my posts #63 and #65, I was trying to express general agreement with your points about who God is and what he does. However, I am not aware that the Bible ever speaks with the term miracle concerning the creation. That Christian writers or speakers may therefore choose not to use the term miracle when speaking of it does not make them any less amazed and blown away by an all-powerful God speaking and it is done, than someone who does use the term miracle.

The starting place on what to describe as a miracle, in my opinion, is to find out the kinds of things the Bible describes as miracles and then try to stay within that territory when calling things miracles.

If creation is not a miracle, then do you agree with the atheists?

Paul expanded our knowledge so that God being the supernatural cause of all, all becomes a supernatural effect of his causing it.

 

[rlvaughn]

If creation is not a miracle, then do you agree with the atheists?

So, you imply that I agree with the atheists if I won't use your preferred terminology? Obviously I don't, which you should already know if you read what I posted about God, his creation, and his rulership over it.

 

[1689Dave]

So, you imply that I agree with the atheists if I won't use your preferred terminology? Obviously I don't, which you should already know if you read what I posted about God, his creation, and his rulership over it.

Not at all. It's just a coincidence.