Are miracles always instantaneous?

[John of Japan]

Right, Providence is not a miracle because it is not instantaneous.

I did not misquote you.

No, you just tried to make me say something I did not.

You want the fast only to be miraculous but not the slow.

Every single NT miracle was instantaneous. Every single OT miracle was instantaneous. However, the many examples of Providence in the Bible were not referred to in Scripture as miraculous: Noah preparing for the flood, Moses being prepared for leadership, Joseph being prepared for leadership, God preparing the way for David to be king, etc., etc.

From Strong's Systematic Theology:

"Providence is that continuous agency of God by which he makes all the events of the physical and moral universe fulfill the original design with which he created it" (Strong, p. 419).

"A miracle is an event palpable to the senses, produced for a religious purpose by the immediate agency of God; an event therefore which, though not contravening any law of nature, the laws of nature, if fully known, would not without this agency of God be competent to explain" (Strong, 117).

 

[rlvaughn]

"A miracle is an event palpable to the senses, produced for a religious purpose by the immediate agency of God; an event therefore which, though not contravening any law of nature, the laws of nature, if fully known, would not without this agency of God be competent to explain" (Strong, 117).

While I agree with the general tenor of Strong's definition, I think it must be modified by the fact that John uses the same word (that he uses for the miracles of Jesus) to describe acts by the power of the beast/Satan (Revelation 13:14; Revelation 16:14; Revelation 19:20). However, I see no reason to suppose these were not immediate as well.

 

[asterisktom]

That was a series of individual miracles, not a single process miracle.

By the same token we can say there are no such things as movies. All they are are a series of individual photos.

 

[John of Japan]

While I agree with the general tenor of Strong's definition, I think it must be modified by the fact that John uses the same word (that he uses for the miracles of Jesus) to describe acts by the power of the beast/Satan (Revelation 13:14; Revelation 16:14; Revelation 19:20). However, I see no reason to suppose these were not immediate as well.

Well, of course Satan can do miracles. But the definition is the same, no matter who does the miracle (or in the case of the Charismatics, claims to do the miracle).

 

[John of Japan]

By the same token we can say there are no such things as movies. All they are are a series of individual photos.

I fail to see any connection. Are you saying that all of the times the lady was helped miraculously occurred in just 1 1/2 hours?

 

[Van]

Are miracles always instantaneous? [] John, I wanted to take this out of the context of the endless Bible Versions debate to discuss on its on merit. I hope you do not mind.

There are some miracles that might not be considered instantaneous -- that is, some miracles for which people have made this claim. Here are three which I have heard.

• Luke 17:14 And when he saw them, he said unto them, Go shew yourselves unto the priests. And it came to pass, that, as they went, they were cleansed.
• John 9:6-7 When he had thus spoken, he spat on the ground, and made clay of the spittle, and he anointed the eyes of the blind man with the clay, And said unto him, Go, wash in the pool of Siloam, (which is by interpretation, Sent.) He went his way therefore, and washed, and came seeing.
• Mark 8:23-25 And he took the blind man by the hand, and led him out of the town; and when he had spit on his eyes, and put his hands upon him, he asked him if he saw ought. And he looked up, and said, I see men as trees, walking. After that he put his hands again upon his eyes, and made him look up: and he was restored, and saw every man clearly.

I think the first two are fairly easily explained. When the person or persons did what Jesus said, then they were instantly healed. The third is certainly an odd case among all of Jesus's miracles. Some would assert that the man's vision was gradually getting better (or something like that).

Thoughts?

Nope

Anything not according to the natural or usual or expected can be deemed supernatural or miraculous.

For example when I am puzzled over the meaning of some passage and pray for enlightenment, and then in a day or two have a fresh insight, not necessarily correct, but no matter, I count it as evidence of the leading of the Holy Spirit, even when I seem to have garbled the message.

 

[Yeshua1]

Feel free to answer in any way you wish. But for my part I had in mind biblical accounts of miracles when I asked the question.

Sorry I didn’t make that clear.

The ones done by Jesus and the Apostles happened right at that time, and were never "lost", as many today say that miracles and healing can take time, and can be forfeited by :lack of faith"

 

[rlvaughn]

Well, of course Satan can do miracles. But the definition is the same...

But the quote you gave did not mention that, thus the need to point it out.

 

[rlvaughn]

That was a series of individual miracles, not a single process miracle.

By the same token we can say there are no such things as movies. All they are are a series of individual photos.

It seems simplest to see this as one immediate miracle that lasted the length of time that God through Elijah said it would. (Sort of like a man not going lame again after the immediate miracle of healing. It continued on.)
1 Kings 17:14 For thus saith the Lord God of Israel, The barrel of meal shall not waste, neither shall the cruse of oil fail, until the day that the Lord sendeth rain upon the earth.
1 Kings 17:16 And the barrel of meal wasted not, neither did the cruse of oil fail, according to the word of the Lord, which he spake by Elijah.

 

[tyndale1946]

It seems simplest to see this as one immediate miracle that lasted the length of time that God through Elijah said it would. (Sort of like a man not going lame again after the immediate miracle of healing. It continued on.)
1 Kings 17:14 For thus saith the Lord God of Israel, The barrel of meal shall not waste, neither shall the cruse of oil fail, until the day that the Lord sendeth rain upon the earth.
1 Kings 17:16 And the barrel of meal wasted not, neither did the cruse of oil fail, according to the word of the Lord, which he spake by Elijah.

Are miracles always instantaneous?... Instead of going to the Bible where there are many instantaneous miracles, let me tell you are true story within my own family, that has been handed down through generations... Then you tell me... My grandfather, my Dads, Dad, at the age of 21 was pronounced dead and was laid out on a slab in a funeral home and they we getting ready to embalm him... I guess you have to understand this was beginning of the century, was he really dead?... Well I guess they wouldn't have him laid out on a slab if he wasn't, according to measurements in those days... Suddenly he came to!... If he died, my Dad, would never have been born... I would not be here... There are probably instantaneous miracles all around us we never see... Why did God intervene in some and not others?... The greatest miracle to me, is when the Son Of God Jesus Christ, stepped from his world into ours, to carry out the will of his Father... Remember once we were ALL DEAD!... Then a miracle happened!... God intervened!... Brother Glen

Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins:

2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
2:7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

 

[RighteousnessTemperance&]

Every single NT miracle was instantaneous. Every single OT miracle was instantaneous. However, the many examples of Providence in the Bible were not referred to in Scripture as miraculous: Noah preparing for the flood, Moses being prepared for leadership, Joseph being prepared for leadership, God preparing the way for David to be king, etc., etc.

From Strong's Systematic Theology:

"Providence is that continuous agency of God by which he makes all the events of the physical and moral universe fulfill the original design with which he created it" (Strong, p. 419).

"A miracle is an event palpable to the senses, produced for a religious purpose by the immediate agency of God; an event therefore which, though not contravening any law of nature, the laws of nature, if fully known, would not without this agency of God be competent to explain" (Strong, 117).

How should Peter’s deliverance from prison (see Acts 12) be categorized? Miraculous or providential?

Be sure to note the city gate's opening by itself.

It might be helpful to define precisely what is meant by instantaneous in your definition.

And also note that Strong's does not employ "instantaneous." And it applies "immediate" to "the agency of God," not to the result's occurrence.

 

[Aaron]

Are miracles always instantaneous? [] John, I wanted to take this out of the context of the endless Bible Versions debate to discuss on its on merit. I hope you do not mind.

There are some miracles that might not be considered instantaneous -- that is, some miracles for which people have made this claim. Here are three which I have heard.

• Luke 17:14 And when he saw them, he said unto them, Go shew yourselves unto the priests. And it came to pass, that, as they went, they were cleansed.
• John 9:6-7 When he had thus spoken, he spat on the ground, and made clay of the spittle, and he anointed the eyes of the blind man with the clay, And said unto him, Go, wash in the pool of Siloam, (which is by interpretation, Sent.) He went his way therefore, and washed, and came seeing.
• Mark 8:23-25 And he took the blind man by the hand, and led him out of the town; and when he had spit on his eyes, and put his hands upon him, he asked him if he saw ought. And he looked up, and said, I see men as trees, walking. After that he put his hands again upon his eyes, and made him look up: and he was restored, and saw every man clearly.

I think the first two are fairly easily explained. When the person or persons did what Jesus said, then they were instantly healed. The third is certainly an odd case among all of Jesus's miracles. Some would assert that the man's vision was gradually getting better (or something like that).

Thoughts?

I would not say instantaneous, but unmistakably supernatural, and immediately recognized as such, for that is the purpose of a miracle.

 

[rlvaughn]

let me tell you are true story within my own family, that has been handed down through generations... Then you tell me... My grandfather, my Dads, Dad, at the age of 21 was pronounced dead and was laid out on a slab in a funeral home and they we getting ready to embalm him... I guess you have to understand this was beginning of the century, was he really dead?... Well I guess they wouldn't have him laid out on a slab if he wasn't, according to measurements in those days... Suddenly he came to!... If he died, my Dad, would never have been born... I would not be here... There are probably instantaneous miracles all around us we never see... Why did God intervene in some and not others?... Brother Glen

Brother, I praise God for your family's experience and testimony -- and that you are here because of it!

Are miracles always instantaneous?... Instead of going to the Bible where there are many instantaneous miracles,

Nevertheless, the Bible is the only place to go judge all things, as says the Articles of Faith of the Lone Pilgrim Primitive Baptist Church (and oodles of others): "We believe that the Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments are the inspired word of God, and the only rule of faith and practice." So, ultimately we have to go to the scriptures to define and understand what a miracle is, don't we?

 

[tyndale1946]

Brother, I praise God for your family's experience and testimony -- and that you are here because of it!
Nevertheless, the Bible is the only place to go judge all things, as says the Articles of Faith of the Lone Pilgrim Primitive Baptist Church (and oodles of others): "We believe that the Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments are the inspired word of God, and the only rule of faith and practice." So, ultimately we have to go to the scriptures to define and understand what a miracle is, don't we?

Yeah!... Brother Robert I kinda dropped the ball on that one... We look at things that happen around us that we can not understand and because of our understanding of scripture, things that are usually out of our control are miracles... While others not understanding scripture and even some who do see the same thing and say... NAH!... Just a coincidence!... My Dad always said when waking up... I woke up this morning on the right side of the dirt and saw the rising sun... A miracle!... Brother Glen

 

[rlvaughn]

I think you have some good questions. Though I realize some of what you ask is specific to John of Japan, I'm going to make a stab of a reply as well.

How should Peter’s deliverance from prison (see Acts 12) be categorized? Miraculous or providential?

Be sure to note the city gate's opening by itself.

I say miraculous. An angel came down and the chains fell off Peter's hand. The gate opened of its own accord. We might also say that through the miracle Peter came providentially to the place where and at a time when people were gathered together praying for him!

So, while I distinguish between providence and miracles, I would not say that these do not happen in conjunction with one another. Further, though I distinguish between providence and miracles, we have to admit God's Providence is pretty miraculous! Take Ruth, for example, whose "hap" was to fall on just the right field where she needed to be at the right time. On the other hand, I can distinguish between that kind of occurrence and what I more immediately think of as a biblical miracle, such as the waters of Egypt turning to blood, or Jesus calling Lazarus out of the grave. I think most Christians do, whether they distinguish it by different words or not.

It might be helpful to define precisely what is meant by instantaneous in your definition.

Yes, I agree. I hope John will do that.

And also note that Strong's does not employ "instantaneous." And it applies "immediate" to "the agency of God," not to the result's occurrence.

Perhaps the word instantaneous itself contains connotations that bring in confusion. I don't think most who use that word think it contradicts an occurrence which plays out in time, such Acts 12:6-11. IOW, that does not in any way contradict what they mean by instantaneous. The angel appeared "in an instant," so to speak, and it all started happening. Others seem bumfuzzled by instantaneous when it plays out over a period of time or a way that does not come to mind when they think of that word. When Moses stretched out his hand, the Red Sea immediately began to stand up as a wall. The miracle kept on keeping on until all the Israelites had passed over to the other side and the Egyptians piled in after them and God had them right where he wanted them. It was both immediate and continuous.

 

[SGO]

Even if the word of God was spoken instantaneously,

did the inspired scriptures all come together in an instant?

Does a bible get instantly translated?

How about its effects on the people that read it?

All happening from the same book instantly.

Feeding the multitudes instantaneous?

How about that slow healing process from robycop3's wife, destined to die by the doctor's analysis, not a miracle?

Birth?

No, a natural process that God has a hand in, but not a miracle.

Just because God is directly involved does not a miracle make.

Perhaps all of our definitions of what is a miracle need to be adjusted.

 

[1689Dave]

Are miracles always instantaneous? [] John, I wanted to take this out of the context of the endless Bible Versions debate to discuss on its on merit. I hope you do not mind.

There are some miracles that might not be considered instantaneous -- that is, some miracles for which people have made this claim. Here are three which I have heard.

• Luke 17:14 And when he saw them, he said unto them, Go shew yourselves unto the priests. And it came to pass, that, as they went, they were cleansed.
• John 9:6-7 When he had thus spoken, he spat on the ground, and made clay of the spittle, and he anointed the eyes of the blind man with the clay, And said unto him, Go, wash in the pool of Siloam, (which is by interpretation, Sent.) He went his way therefore, and washed, and came seeing.
• Mark 8:23-25 And he took the blind man by the hand, and led him out of the town; and when he had spit on his eyes, and put his hands upon him, he asked him if he saw ought. And he looked up, and said, I see men as trees, walking. After that he put his hands again upon his eyes, and made him look up: and he was restored, and saw every man clearly.

I think the first two are fairly easily explained. When the person or persons did what Jesus said, then they were instantly healed. The third is certainly an odd case among all of Jesus's miracles. Some would assert that the man's vision was gradually getting better (or something like that).

Thoughts?

It seems there are different levels of miracles. The Apostles and those they gave the signs and wonders gifts to were always instantaneous. Jesus provided the same but also faith healing that involved small elements of time. The instantaneous miracles of the Apostles ceased sometime in the writing of the Epistles when Paul no longer healed but placed his sick friends on medicine, so to speak. And the prayer of faith that heals psychosomatically in many cases today. Stop drinking and health might be restored etc.

One of the miracles God provides today for all is that he increased human knowledge as foretold in Daniel. And we see this all around us in the hospitals of our day. All miracles based on God's providence where child and sinner alike die a hundred years old.

 

[rlvaughn]

It seems there are different levels of miracles. The Apostles and those they gave the signs and wonders gifts to were always instantaneous. Jesus provided the same but also faith healing that involved small elements of time...

Do you think there are examples of these lower level miracles in the Bible, or are you speaking in general terms? If in the Bible, which ones would be examples?

Paul no longer healed but placed his sick friends on medicine, so to speak. And the prayer of faith that heals psychosomatically in many cases today. Stop drinking and health might be restored etc.

Are you placing these under the terminology of miracles?

Thanks.

 

[1689Dave]

Do you think there are examples of these lower level miracles in the Bible, or are you speaking in general terms? If in the Bible, which ones would be examples?
Are you placing these under the terminology of miracles?

Thanks.

The people who were first to dip in the sheep market pool after the angel troubled the waters were healed, no doubt psychosomatically. Even today, repentance from health-damaging sins will heal regardless of religion. As Jesus said, which is easier to say, thy sins are forgiven or take up thy bed and walk?

Modern medicine performs miracles because God increased our knowledge. So glory is due to him. Psychosomatic cures are miracles if God grants repentance from the sins causing them. But we have nothing today close to the Apostle's signs and wonders, or Jesus' creative cures.

 

[John of Japan]

I see some confusion about my use of the word "instantaneous." It means, simply, in an unmeasurable moment of time. To narrow it down a little bit, no one measured the miracles of Jesus by time. In none of his miracles did the Gospel writers write about some kind of time frame of His miracles.

1. The feeding of the 5000: "And I looked, and behold, the bread and fish gradually grew in my basket."--Nope.
2. Walking on water: "And Peter stepped out of the boat, and his foot started to sink, but then he felt the water begin to harden."--Nope.
3. Healing of lepers--" And I looked, and behold, the leprous sores began to fade, until five minutes later they were gone."--Nope.

When time is referred to in the miracles of Jesus, the word used is "immediately" (Greek εὐθυς).

1. Matt. 8:3, "And Jesus put forth his hand, and touched him, saying, I will; be thou clean. And immediately his leprosy was cleansed."
2. Mark 1:31, "And he came and took her by the hand, and lifted her up; and immediately the fever left her, and she ministered unto them."
3. Mark 2:12, "And immediately he arose, took up the bed, and went forth before them all; insomuch that they were all amazed, and glorified God, saying, We never saw it on this fashion."

Etc.