Please Provide Input on Revelation 12:4

[percho]

Let's go for it.

The Lamb (The Son of Man, the Son of God) slain from the foundation of the world. Rev 13:
having known that, not with corruptible things -- silver or gold -- were ye redeemed from your foolish behaviour delivered by fathers, (began with the sin of Adam) but with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and unspotted -- Christ's -- (the Son of Man , the Son of God) foreknown, indeed, before the foundation of the world, and manifested in the last times because of you, 1 Peter 1:18-20

Why did God put the man he had created in his own image in the garden he had prepared for the man where the dragon was?

for to vanity was the creation made subject -- not of its will, but because of Him who did subject it -- in hope, Rom 8:20

Was it because, before God said let there be light, the dragon and a third of the angels had been cast to the earth?

The woman, with pain, brought forth the man child, who was obedient unto death even the death of the cross Phil 2

THEREFORE because of this obedience

God the Father through Zion and without pain brought forth, a man child, out of death, exulted him on high with a name above all names; The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand. Until I make thy foes thy footstool.

Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.


I do not believe until has taken place .......

 

[robycop3]

No, God did not say he will keep us from tribulation. "In this world you will have many troubles." Many will be martyred and killed in tribulation as we have already witnessed over the past 2000 years. The end will come at any moment, Jesus will return and one will be kept as the redeemed while the other will be removed unto damnation. (Matthew 24)

Yes, there are & will be many tribulations in life, but Jesus was referring to the GREAT trib, the worst time of trouble in mankind's history, that'll come upon the world during the antichrist's reign. THAT'S what He will keep His Church from. The trib saints will have plenty of tribs-the worldwide disasters, plus, the antichrist's forces seeking to find & kill them, plus the trouble of doing business with black markets.

 

[timtofly]

It's 6 out of 12 (Judah, Benjamin, Levi, Ephraim, Manasseh, Asher) not to mention:
Mat 4:12 Now when Jesus had heard that John was cast into prison, he departed into Galilee;
Mat 4:13 And leaving Nazareth, he came and dwelt in Capernaum, which is upon the sea coast, in the borders of Zabulon and Nephthalim:
Mat 4:14 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying,
Mat 4:15 The land of Zabulon, and the land of Nephthalim, by the way of the sea, beyond Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles;

The Gentile presence notwithstanding, so it's 8/12.

Anyway, I'm satisfied the point was made that it wasn't only Judah and Benjamin that returned - which was the point contended - and that 12 stars was a meet representation of Israel at the time of Christ's birth.

So you are saying the Assyrians did not scatter the northern ten tribes?

You provided conjecture by taking events of your choosing and shoving them into the Bible to make your narrative fit.
Tell me where 1948 is shown in scripture as a definite fulfillment of prophecy. You cannot find it. You have to force it into a scripture passage. As I read the pretrib theories I am again shown how much juggling and conjecture must be done to actually believe the theory. I would be interested to see pretrib folks tell our persecuted brothers and sisters that they are not going through tribulation as they are being martyred for the faith. Pretrib rapture theory is such a western Christian world concoction to avoid the fear of dying for one's faith.

If tribulation is defined by martyrs, then the tribulation started with Cain when he martyred Abel on the alter God set up in the Garden of Eden. No one is pre-trib by that standard.

Christ comes to earth and is present during the Trumpets and Thunders. The Lord of the vineyard comes as well and the throne of God is seen by all on the earth. The Second Coming is pre-1st Trumpet. The rapture and the Second Coming happen at the same time at the opening of the 6th Seal. Post the first 5 Seals (the tribulation of those days).

There is no single point of gathering the harvest. The angels are removing souls from bodies on a constant basis. That is why this is the final harvest. Jesus spoke in parables. Jesus is going to set up a throne and temple in Jerusalem. But calling the sheep and goats is not a single event where billions will literally come to Jerusalem. The sheep and goats represent the angels removing the souls and placing them in Death or they will be resurrected in Revelation 20:4 on earth to rule with Christ. It is an ongoing process that takes months, not a single one time event. There is a date it will have to finish. Revelation 10:6-7 the Angel declares that time is up. Then the 7th sounding will begin for one week. The close and celebration of the Second Coming.

Only then will a week be split in half, and Satan may get 42 months. That depends on how much is left to harvest in the vineyard. 42 months of those who are beheaded will finish the harvest of the firstfruits of the Millennial Kingdom.

 

[timtofly]

Paul said last trump not last trumpet.
A trump is a sound of a trumpet.
At the resurrection/rapture of the church (1Co.15), the first trump raises the dead, the second and last trump changes the living and catches up both groups to meet the Lord.
That is not all the same thing as the last of the 7 trumpets of the tribulation.
An excellent example of how even adding two letters ("et") to a word ("trump") changes doctrine

It seems Gabriel is the Archangel that brings the Trump of God to sound at the Second Coming in Revelation 6, at the 6th Seal. It sounds then. After the 7th Seal is opened, then 6 more angels are presented with 6 Trumpets.

I say Gabriel because Gabriel was the archangel who told Daniel about the 70 weeks. Gabriel announced the birth of Jesus Christ. The first half of the 70th week though was Christ being baptized and obedient to God until the ascension.

Then the fulness of the Gentile church. Now 1991 years later, it is time for the Second Coming. Gabriel will bring the Trump of God, like Paul said. It will sound before the 7th Seal. It is both the first and final Trumpet.

Paul did not say at the 7th time a Trumpet would sound. He just said the Trump of God. Gabriel will sound both at the start, and will be the last sounding after the 7 Thunders. When Gabriel stops, the 70 weeks will be finished.

That may be after 8 days, at the winepress in Revelation 14. It may last 42 months and stop after the 1 hour battle of Armageddon between 5pm and 6pm on the final Sunday, before the Millennium starts.

If any want to just say conjecture, go ahead. Other than it was Gabriel who did all the work concerning the 70 weeks message when first given to Daniel, there is no reason why Gabriel is not going to be the one to finish the message how God sees fit.

Gabriel defined the 70th week as Christ being on earth. Jesus is both Messiah and Prince. The first half of the 7 years was Jesus as Messiah. The last half will be Jesus as Prince. Jesus was the Atonement Covenant. Only Jesus Christ can confirm the Atonement Covenant. Gabriel is the Archangel who brought the message to Daniel. Gabriel will be the Archangel to finish the event.

 

[timtofly]

I know you have convinced yourself that your theory is correct. Unfortunately, the Bible does not support your theory. In fact, though I do not hold to it, the preterist view has a stronger support than the pretrib view.

Post trib only has one verse. "After the tribulation", and that is misquoted, by failing to finish the statement, "of those days". That is so generic. There will not be a time of greatest trouble ever seen, until the face of the One sitting on the throne and the Lamb come to earth and finish the last half of the 70th week.

Christ has to come to do His job. Christ cannot come after His job is over. This great tribulation of the Trumpets and Thunders is Christ's final harvest, and no one else but the Prince can harvest the vineyard. That is evident in Revelation 14. The battle of Armageddon is not the final harvest. That is the final end of Adam's wicked flesh. A harvest means gathering what is useful. Not the end of sin, only.

 

[timtofly]

So, if allegory is applied then there is more than one path to the promised land?

No just the narrow road is less traveled than the broad path. The destination depends on the one traveling, not the route they take.

More people reject God, thus they need more bandwidth.

 

[timtofly]

Yes, there are & will be many tribulations in life, but Jesus was referring to the GREAT trib, the worst time of trouble in mankind's history, that'll come upon the world during the antichrist's reign. THAT'S what He will keep His Church from. The trib saints will have plenty of tribs-the worldwide disasters, plus, the antichrist's forces seeking to find & kill them, plus the trouble of doing business with black markets.

The point is that angels are removing souls, not preserving physical life. The only ones sealed are the 144k disciples. They are not the church being preserved. They are chosen virgin males, who probably never went to church once in their life. They could not have rejected the Gospel by hearing it. They would have been taken away, if redeemed. They are sealed to be a witness and can immediately witness once they are sealed. God changes them, and they cannot be harmed in any way. That is the literal application to the fact they are spiritually sealed.

No one who knows the truth or thinks they know the truth, can be saved after the fact. God will freeze their minds and they cannot ever change. Now they may get their heads cut off to preserve the soul, but that is not a gaurantee of perserverance.

I am not sure most realize the severity of the final harvest. It is not a pick and choose, hide and escape, Hollywood thriller movie of the survival of the fittest. There are no heros who make it out alive. The whole point is shedding Adam's sinful flesh, not preserving it.

 

[robycop3]

Post trib only has one verse. "After the tribulation", and that is misquoted, by failing to finish the statement, "of those days". That is so generic. There will not be a time of greatest trouble ever seen, until the face of the One sitting on the throne and the Lamb come to earth and finish the last half of the 70th week.

Christ has to come to do His job. Christ cannot come after His job is over. This great tribulation of the Trumpets and Thunders is Christ's final harvest, and no one else but the Prince can harvest the vineyard. That is evident in Revelation 14. The battle of Armageddon is not the final harvest. That is the final end of Adam's wicked flesh. A harvest means gathering what is useful. Not the end of sin, only.

No, the seals, trumpets, & vials are all part of the trib. Jesus said the trib will be cut short lest all flesh should perish, & that He'd return IMMEDIATELY AFTER the trib.

 

[robycop3]

The point is that angels are removing souls, not preserving physical life. The only ones sealed are the 144k disciples. They are not the church being preserved. They are chosen virgin males, who probably never went to church once in their life. They could not have rejected the Gospel by hearing it. They would have been taken away, if redeemed. They are sealed to be a witness and can immediately witness once they are sealed. God changes them, and they cannot be harmed in any way. That is the literal application to the fact they are spiritually sealed.

No one who knows the truth or thinks they know the truth, can be saved after the fact. God will freeze their minds and they cannot ever change. Now they may get their heads cut off to preserve the soul, but that is not a gaurantee of perserverance.

I am not sure most realize the severity of the final harvest. It is not a pick and choose, hide and escape, Hollywood thriller movie of the survival of the fittest. There are no heros who make it out alive. The whole point is shedding Adam's sinful flesh, not preserving it.

"Time To Fly" is a good handle for as you're making stuff up on the fly.

A careful reading of Scripture & not just Revelation shows:

The nest eschatological mevent will be the antichrist's coming to power.

Then comes the rapture before the AOD & marka the beast are accomplished.

Then comes the "abomination of desolation" & marka the beast.

Then comes the trib.

Immediately after Jesus cuts the trib short, He physically returns & ushers in the "millenium".

 

[timtofly]

No, the seals, trumpets, & vials are all part of the trib. Jesus said the trib will be cut short lest all flesh should perish, & that He'd return IMMEDIATELY AFTER the trib.

This is not rightly dividing the Word of God, but lumping it all together.

You forgot to lump in the thunders. The Thunders have not been important until now. Many living today will last to the Thunders.

"And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened."

Jesus says saved, you said perish. The longer away the Second Coming is, more people will accept Christ. The time of salvation will be longer. The tribulation will be shorter. If the GT had started 100 years ago and still going today. Most of those living in the last 100 years would be dead and in Death.

All physical flesh is going to perish. There is no way to get around that, by changing the length of the tribulation.

 

[timtofly]

"Time To Fly" is a good handle for as you're making stuff up on the fly.

A careful reading of Scripture & not just Revelation shows:

The nest eschatological mevent will be the antichrist's coming to power.

Then comes the rapture before the AOD & marka the beast are accomplished.

Then comes the "abomination of desolation" & marka the beast.

Then comes the trib.

Immediately after Jesus cuts the trib short, He physically returns & ushers in the "millenium".

No verses back up your imaginative AC.

 

[robycop3]

This is not rightly dividing the Word of God, but lumping it all together.

You forgot to lump in the thunders. The Thunders have not been important until now. Many living today will last to the Thunders.

"And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened."

Jesus says saved, you said perish. The longer away the Second Coming is, more people will accept Christ. The time of salvation will be longer. The tribulation will be shorter. If the GT had started 100 years ago and still going today. Most of those living in the last 100 years would be dead and in Death.

All physical flesh is going to perish. There is no way to get around that, by changing the length of the tribulation.

The thunders are before Jesus returns. And in this case, the "saved" Jesus refers to means 'kept from being killed'.

 

[robycop3]

No verses back up your imaginative AC.

Actually, there are plenty. Daniel refers to a prince of the people who would destroy Jesusalem, as well as the AOD. Jesus mentions the AOD.Paul wrote the day of the Lord won't come til the antichrist is revealed, & he commits the AOD. Revelation 13 & 17 say a lot about him & his empire. Rev says he will be in power when Jesus returns, & that he will send his army against Jesus & the saints, but Jesus will destroy that army with His spoken word & cast the beast & his sidekick the false prophet directly, alive, into hell without passing "Go!" or collecting $200.

 

[timtofly]

The thunders are before Jesus returns. And in this case, the "saved" Jesus refers to means 'kept from being killed'.

Saved means having the Atonement and a resident of Paradise. Why does corruptible flesh need to be preserved? Flesh is being redeemed, that "saved". Flesh is not being extended to live forever in sin.

It is for the sake of the elect, the redeemed, not for the sake of extending Adam's flesh and blood.

 

[timtofly]

Actually, there are plenty. Daniel refers to a prince of the people who would destroy Jesusalem, as well as the AOD. Jesus mentions the AOD.Paul wrote the day of the Lord won't come til the antichrist is revealed, & he commits the AOD. Revelation 13 & 17 say a lot about him & his empire. Rev says he will be in power when Jesus returns, & that he will send his army against Jesus & the saints, but Jesus will destroy that army with His spoken word & cast the beast & his sidekick the false prophet directly, alive, into hell without passing "Go!" or collecting $200.

Jesus Christ is the prince of the people. The AC does not provide an Atonement Covenant. Revelation 13 and 17 are about Satan and his empire. Satan, the FP, and the beast, show up at Armageddon, which one is the AC? John never names an AC in Revelation. He only mentions, the FP, Satan and an image that is given life. Any AC would be the image given life, a beast. God and the Lamb appear on earth at the 6th Seal. When do they ever leave?

 

[robycop3]

Jesus Christ is the prince of the people. The AC does not provide an Atonement Covenant. Revelation 13 and 17 are about Satan and his empire.

No; they're about the beast & FP, & their empire. Satan will indwell both, but he doesn't manifest himself.

Satan, the FP, and the beast, show up at Armageddon, which one is the AC?

The beast, naturally.

John never names an AC in Revelation. He only mentions, the FP, Satan and an image that is given life. Any AC would be the image given life, a beast.

The antichrist, beast, "man of sin", etc. are all terms for the same man.

God and the Lamb appear on earth at the 6th Seal. When do they ever leave?

No, they DON'T. The Scripture says the Lamb(Jesus) is opening the seals.It does NOT say He's doing it on earth.

 

[timtofly]

No; they're about the beast & FP, & their empire. Satan will indwell both, but he doesn't manifest himself.


The beast, naturally.


The antichrist, beast, "man of sin", etc. are all terms for the same man.

Satan is the "man" who rejects the law, and sits as God. Satan is a real being that is outed, after pulling the strings behind the scenes, starting with the Greeks, and Romans, and calling the shots in Vatican City for 2500 years. Satan, the FP, and the image do not possess each other. They themselves send out spirits to control humans. Revelation 16:13.

No, they DON'T. The Scripture says the Lamb(Jesus) is opening the seals.It does NOT say He's doing it on earth.

What does omnipresent mean to you? God cannot do what God claims? Jesus said the only sign is the Son of man coming from the sky. Why would that change and the same sign is not the actual Coming?

 

[robycop3]

Satan is the "man" who rejects the law, and sits as God. Satan is a real being that is outed, after pulling the strings behind the scenes, starting with the Greeks, and Romans, and calling the shots in Vatican City for 2500 years. Satan, the FP, and the image do not possess each other. They themselves send out spirits to control humans. Revelation 16:13.

No, there'll be 2 physical, actual men, Homo Sapiens, same as we are, with Satan indwelling the "man of sin", & empowering the FP to do certain miracles wsuch as summoning lightning & causing a statue to speak.

What does omnipresent mean to you? God cannot do what God claims? Jesus said the only sign is the Son of man coming from the sky. Why would that change and the same sign is not the actual Coming?

There'll be the eschatological events before He returns. And Jesus said the sign of the Son of man would appear in the sky. He didn't say what that sign will be, but it'll likely be unmistakable for anything else.

 

[Yeshua1]

We cannot say the tribulation is not here, but we can say the elect will go through the tribulation.

Matthew 24:22-24,26-31,36-44

And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect.

So, if they say to you, ‘Look, he is in the wilderness,’ do not go out. If they say, ‘Look, he is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. For as the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather.

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. “But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son,but the Father only. For as were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, and they were unaware until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. Then two men will be in the field; one will be taken and one left. Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and one left. Therefore, stay awake, for you do not know on what day your Lord is coming. But know this, that if the master of the house had known in what part of the night the thief was coming, he would have stayed awake and would not have let his house be broken into. Therefore you also must be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.

I am historical premil , so do see us going thru the Great tribulation, but still a future event to come!

 

[robycop3]

We see the dragon has 7 heads & 10 crowns, same as the beast of Rev. 17. This shows that beast/empire will be controlled by Satan, who will indwell the antichrist, that empire's human ruler. But Satan won't be cast into hell with him immediately; he will be removed from the antichrist & cast into "the abyss" til the millenium's over.