The Sovereignty of God in the life of Joseph

[Martin Marprelate]

On another thread, @Silverhair and I crossed swords on the subject of the sovereignty of God, in particular the teaching of the 1689 Baptist Confession 3:1. Here it is in slightly modified English with notes by Dr. Peter Masters in brackets:

“God has decreed in Himself [decided by Himself] from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely and unchangeably, all things that shall ever come to pass [Nothing forced Him in the making of any of His plans, and all His intentions will be carried out without the slightest alteration]
Isaiah 46:10; Ephesians 1:11; Hebrews 6:17; Romans 9:15, 18.

– yet in such a way that God is neither the author of sin nor does He have fellowship [mutual responsibility] with any in the committing of sins, nor is violence offered to the will of the creature [no one is made to sin], nor yet is the liberty of contingency of second causes taken away [i.e. nor is the free working of the law of cause and effect interfered with] but rather established.
James 1:13-15; 1 John 1:5; Acts of the Apostles 4:27-28; John 19:11.

--In all this God’s wisdom is displayed, disposing all things [ordering the course of events] and also His power and faithfulness in accomplishing His decree” [God’s faithfulness here means His unswerving conformity to His holy character and His revealed word]
Numbers 23:19; Ephesians 1:3-5.
[Bible proof texts in the original]

I would now like to investigate God’s sovereignty in the life of Joseph. I have chosen this part of the Bible because it is an extended narrative where I believe God’s absolute control of events may be plainly seen. So let’s start with a quick look at the denouement and Joseph’s speech to his brothers. Genesis 45:5-8. “But now, do not therefore be grieved or angry with yourselves because you sold me here; for God sent me here before you to preserve life…..And God sent me here before you to preserve a posterity for you in the earth, and to save your lives by a great deliverance. So it was not you who sent me here but God, and He has made me a father to Pharaoh, and a lord of all his house, and a ruler throughout all the land of Egypt.”

So God’s purpose in bringing Joseph to Egypt was to save the Patriarchs and start building the nation of Israel into with Christ would later be born.. He also brought the brothers (who were a pretty nasty bunch) to repentance (Genesis 42:21 etc.) and established Joseph as a type of Christ.

I’m going to start the account with the establishment of a custom in the land of Padan Aram (Genesis 29:26). Jacob could not marry Rachel without also marrying Leah. Without that custom, Jacob would not have entered into the interesting matrimonial arrangements that he did and the Patriarchs would not have been born. The people of Padan Aram entered into that custom perfectly freely but in doing so they were fulfilling the will of God. Jacob was not obliged to go along with that custom, but he did so and the family that resulted was, unsurprisingly, rather dysfunctional. One son was incestuous (Genesis 35:22) , two were ultra-violent Genesis 34:25; 49:5-7) and another consorted with prostitutes (Genesis 38:16).

Next, Jacob loved Rachel more than Leah. This led to him loving Joseph more than the other brothers, which in turn led to them hating Joseph (Genesis 37:3-4). None of this was forced upon them by God, but it was part of His plan to get Joseph to Egypt. Next, Jacob, of his own free will sent Joseph to find his brothers, and the brothers, of their own free will, plotted to kill him (Genesis 37:13, 19-20). Then some Midianite traders just happened to come by at just the right time, and the brothers sold Joseph to them (Genesis 37:28). If they had come by 30 minutes later, Joseph might have been dead.

Then Potiphar decided that he needed a new slave, and popped down to the slave market to buy one (Genesis 39:1). If he hadn’t done so, Joseph might have ended up rowing in a galley or building a pyramid and never have got anywhere near Pharaoh. There might have been 50 or 100 slaves for sale, but Potiphar freely chose Joseph. Now it just happened that Mrs Potiphar had a roving eye, and it just happened that Joseph was a bit of a dish (Genesis 39:6-7). If he had been spotty and cross-eyed, or Mrs P faithful to her husband, salvation would never have happened. You might expect that Potiphar would have had Joseph executed; I don’t suppose that a slave’s life was very precious in Egypt in 1,800 BC. But Potiphar freely decides merely to put him in jail. Perhaps he knew what his wife was like. The point is that all these things were arranged by God to bring His great plan of salvation about without overriding anyone’s free will or being the author of evil.

So why does the keeper of the prison commit all the other prisoners to Joseph (Genesis 39:22)? Because he knew that Joseph was capable and trustworthy (v.23); but also because it was necessary for Joseph to get to know the butler and the baker so that he could explain their dreams. Why did the baker have to be in jail? Obviously because he had upset Pharaoh somehow (Genesis 40:1-2), but also because by Joseph rightly interpreting two dreams the butler could see that Joseph interpreting his own dream was not a fluke. Why did the butler forget all about Joseph (Genesis 40:23)? Because he was an ungrateful wretch with a poor memory, but also because Joseph could not be freed until Pharaoh had had his dreams. If Pharaoh had freed him before, he would probably have gone back to Canaan and had a big confrontation with his brothers. There would have been no one to interpret Pharaoh’s dream, no food in Egypt, the Patriarchs would probably have starved and Joseph would not have been a type of Christ. What the butler did (or didn’t do) perfectly freely, God had ordained from all eternity to bring about His righteous purposes.

I could go on, but I think I’ve done enough to show that every step in Joseph’s life was ordained by God (c.f. Psalms 139:10) so that he could play his part in bringing about salvation to the world by Jesus Christ, but in such a way that Joseph and everyone else were entirely responsible for their own actions, and God is not the author of sin.

 

[SGO]

In whom we also have obtained an inheritance,
being predestined according to the purpose of
him who worketh
all things
after the counsel of his own will:
That we
should be to the praise of his glory,...
Ephesians 1:11-12a

 

[Reformed]

I could go on, but I think I’ve done enough to show that every step in Joseph’s life was ordained by God (c.f. Psalms 139:10) so that he could play his part in bringing about salvation to the world by Jesus Christ, but in such a way that Joseph and everyone else were entirely responsible for their own actions,

You did a good job of comparing God's sovereignty and human responsibility. Joseph fulfilled the role that God predestined for him, but Joseph also acted freely. Could Joseph have chosen differently and, therefore, thwarted God's plan? No. However, Joseph was not a human wind up toy.

The relationship between God's sovereignty and human responsibility is easier to see when we look at the past. We can clearly see how God used Joseph to bring about the immediate preservation of Israel, as well as the Messianic line. It is harder to see this relationship in current events. As we live our lives our myopia often prevents us from seeing God directing our path for His purpose. We like to think that we are in charge. The truth is that we are anything but in charge. Graciously, God directs our path, but does so in such a way in which we are responsible for our own actions. We have the joy that comes with obedience to His word, but also the consequences that are the result of sin.

 

[Iconoclast]

Martin, thanks for your instructive post.
Once the truth is seen here,others will perhaps see the same lessons spread out throughout scripture

 

[kyredneck]

I could go on, but I think I’ve done enough to show that every step in Joseph’s life was ordained by God (c.f. Psalms 139:10) so that he could play his part in bringing about salvation to the world by Jesus Christ, but in such a way that Joseph and everyone else were entirely responsible for their own actions, and God is not the author of sin.

25 who by the Holy Spirit, by the mouth of our father David thy servant, didst say, Why did the Gentiles rage, And the peoples imagine vain things?
26 The kings of the earth set themselves in array, And the rulers were gathered together, Against the Lord, and against his Anointed:
27 for of a truth in this city against thy holy Servant Jesus, whom thou didst anoint, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, were gathered together,
28 to do whatsoever thy hand and thy council foreordained to come to pass. Acts 4

 

[Silverhair]

You did a good job of comparing God's sovereignty and human responsibility. Joseph fulfilled the role that God predestined for him, but Joseph also acted freely. Could Joseph have chosen differently and, therefore, thwarted God's plan? No. However, Joseph was not a human wind up toy.

The relationship between God's sovereignty and human responsibility is easier to see when we look at the past. We can clearly see how God used Joseph to bring about the immediate preservation of Israel, as well as the Messianic line. It is harder to see this relationship in current events. As we live our lives our myopia often prevents us from seeing God directing our path for His purpose. We like to think that we are in charge. The truth is that we are anything but in charge. Graciously, God directs our path, but does so in such a way in which we are responsible for our own actions. We have the joy that comes with obedience to His word, but also the consequences that are the result of sin.

Could Joseph have chosen differently and, therefore, thwarted God's plan? No. However, Joseph was not a human wind up toy.

Do you not see the contradiction here? How is it possible for Joseph to act freely?

If you do not have the option to chose otherwise/differently then you can not act freely.

 

[Silverhair]

In whom we also have obtained an inheritance,
being predestined according to the purpose of
him who worketh
all things
after the counsel of his own will:
That we
should be to the praise of his glory,...
Ephesians 1:11-12a

Don't forget the balance of the sentence.

Eph 1:12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.
Eph 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

Context Context Context.

 

[Reformed]

Could Joseph have chosen differently and, therefore, thwarted God's plan? No. However, Joseph was not a human wind up toy.

Do you not see the contradiction here? How is it possible for Joseph to act freely?

If you do not have the option to chose otherwise/differently then you can not act freely.

No contradiction. We make our own choices and are responsible for those choices. The part none of us know is how God causes His sovereignty and human responsibility to work together. The person who comes down on the side of free will faces the same conundrum. If you say that Joseph could have thwarted God's plan, then God really is not sovereign. Both sides are forced to admit that there is a degree of mystery involved. That used to bother me until I dwelt on God's words through Isaiah the prophet. "My thoughts are not your thoughts, nor or your ways My ways" (Isaiah 55:8). Paul would later write in 1 Corinthians 13:12, "For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully, just as I also have been fully known." We take what God has clearly revealed in His word and trust in that. The rest? We go back to what we do know and then accept the rest by faith. For example, we know God's will of decree cannot be changed by man. Even when we read about God changing His mind, that is according to human understanding. God never changes (Malachi 3:6). So, since we know God is immutable and no plan of His can be stopped, delayed, or altered by man; we must accept that God allows human choice to exist within the greater sphere of that plan. Since no one can adequately dissect the two (God's sovereignty and man's responsibility), we are forced to accept what we do not know based on what we do know.

Will this change your mind? No. Of course not. Is my explanation satisfactory to you? I suppose the answer to that is no as well. But to quote the great unknown American, James Cashman, "It is what it is."

 

[Silverhair]

On another thread, @Silverhair and I crossed swords on the subject of the sovereignty of God, in particular the teaching of the 1689 Baptist Confession 3:1. Here it is in slightly modified English with notes by Dr. Peter Masters in brackets:

“God has decreed in Himself [decided by Himself] from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely and unchangeably, all things that shall ever come to pass [Nothing forced Him in the making of any of His plans, and all His intentions will be carried out without the slightest alteration]
Isaiah 46:10; Ephesians 1:11; Hebrews 6:17; Romans 9:15, 18.

– yet in such a way that God is neither the author of sin nor does He have fellowship [mutual responsibility] with any in the committing of sins, nor is violence offered to the will of the creature [no one is made to sin], nor yet is the liberty of contingency of second causes taken away [i.e. nor is the free working of the law of cause and effect interfered with] but rather established.
James 1:13-15; 1 John 1:5; Acts of the Apostles 4:27-28; John 19:11.

--In all this God’s wisdom is displayed, disposing all things [ordering the course of events] and also His power and faithfulness in accomplishing His decree” [God’s faithfulness here means His unswerving conformity to His holy character and His revealed word]
Numbers 23:19; Ephesians 1:3-5.
[Bible proof texts in the original]

“God has decreed in Himself [decided by Himself] from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely and unchangeably, all things that shall ever come to pass [Nothing forced Him in the making of any of His plans, and all His intentions will be carried out without the slightest alteration]
Isa_46:10; Eph_1:11; Heb_6:17; Rom_9:15, Rom_9:18.

Martin as I have said the problem is not with scripture it is with the LBCF. I have always said that God has a plan for the redemption of man and we can see this plan from Genesis 1:1 thru Revelation 22:21. The LBCF states that God has decreed...of His own will, freely and unchangeably, all things that shall ever come to pass. This does not leave anything out, everything that happens is decreed by God.


++++
– yet in such a way that God is neither the author of sin nor does He have fellowship [mutual responsibility] with any in the committing of sins, nor is violence offered to the will of the creature [no one is made to sin], nor yet is the liberty of contingency of second causes taken away [i.e. nor is the free working of the law of cause and effect interfered with] but rather established.
Jas_1:13-15; 1Jn_1:5; Act_4:27-28; Joh_19:11.

If God has decreed all things that come to pass {see above} then the LBCF can not turn around and say that He did not decree it. While I do agree God is not the author of sin, as scripture shows, it is the LBCF that places that title on Him and this to their shame.

Now as to saying that God avoids responsibility for sin because of the contingency of second causes. That argument does not stand up to biblical standards. We see in 2Sa where King David had ordered the death of his servant, Uriah, {2Sa 11:15} as a first cause, but the act was carried out by second causes, being General Joab and the Philistines. So David did not do the deed, yet God held him culpable. {2Sa 12:9} Now the question is, are we to be held to a higher standard than God? If God is sovereign in the way Calvinists contend {divine determinism} then Calvinists have made Him accountable for all sin. If as the LBCF states God has decreed ...of His own will, freely and unchangeably, all things that shall ever come to pass then this is a hook that you can not get yourself off of.

++++
--In all this God’s wisdom is displayed, disposing all things [ordering the course of events] and also His power and faithfulness in accomplishing His decree” [God’s faithfulness here means His unswerving conformity to His holy character and His revealed word]
Num_23:19; Eph_1:3-5.
[Bible proof texts in the original]

I agree completely that God does not lie and that He will accomplish His plan for His creation. Since as you know Eph 1:3-14 is one sentence in Greek we would be remiss if we did not look at the complete sentence. While the beginning of the sentence tells us that we are chosen in Christ Jesus the end tells us how and why, we hear the gospel and then believe the gospel then we are sealed by the Holy Spirit. {cf Rom 10:12-15}

God planned to redeem fallen mankind {Gen_3:15}. He called and chose Abraham to choose all humans {Gen_12:3; Exo_19:5-6}. He calls all sinners {1Ti 1:15} to salvation through faith in Christ Jesus {Joh_3:16; 1Ti_2:4; 2Pe_3:9; 1Jn_2:2; 1Jn_4:14}. God Himself predestinated to eternal life all persons who would freely exercise faith in Christ Jesus. The believers' choice of trusting in Christ Jesus confirms, not determines, God's choice of them.

 

[Silverhair]

I would now like to investigate God’s sovereignty in the life of Joseph. I have chosen this part of the Bible because it is an extended narrative where I believe God’s absolute control of events may be plainly seen. So let’s start with a quick look at the denouement and Joseph’s speech to his brothers. Genesis 45:5-8. “But now, do not therefore be grieved or angry with yourselves because you sold me here; for God sent me here before you to preserve life…..And God sent me here before you to preserve a posterity for you in the earth, and to save your lives by a great deliverance. So it was not you who sent me here but God, and He has made me a father to Pharaoh, and a lord of all his house, and a ruler throughout all the land of Egypt.”

So God’s purpose in bringing Joseph to Egypt was to save the Patriarchs and start building the nation of Israel into with Christ would later be born.. He also brought the brothers (who were a pretty nasty bunch) to repentance (Genesis 42:21 etc.) and established Joseph as a type of Christ.

I’m going to start the account with the establishment of a custom in the land of Padan Aram (Genesis 29:26). Jacob could not marry Rachel without also marrying Leah. Without that custom, Jacob would not have entered into the interesting matrimonial arrangements that he did and the Patriarchs would not have been born. The people of Padan Aram entered into that custom perfectly freely but in doing so they were fulfilling the will of God. Jacob was not obliged to go along with that custom, but he did so and the family that resulted was, unsurprisingly, rather dysfunctional. One son was incestuous (Genesis 35:22) , two were ultra-violent Genesis 34:25; 49:5-7) and another consorted with prostitutes (Genesis 38:16).

Next, Jacob loved Rachel more than Leah. This led to him loving Joseph more than the other brothers, which in turn led to them hating Joseph (Genesis 37:3-4). None of this was forced upon them by God, but it was part of His plan to get Joseph to Egypt. Next, Jacob, of his own free will sent Joseph to find his brothers, and the brothers, of their own free will, plotted to kill him (Genesis 37:13, 19-20). Then some Midianite traders just happened to come by at just the right time, and the brothers sold Joseph to them (Genesis 37:28). If they had come by 30 minutes later, Joseph might have been dead.

Then Potiphar decided that he needed a new slave, and popped down to the slave market to buy one (Genesis 39:1). If he hadn’t done so, Joseph might have ended up rowing in a galley or building a pyramid and never have got anywhere near Pharaoh. There might have been 50 or 100 slaves for sale, but Potiphar freely chose Joseph. Now it just happened that Mrs Potiphar had a roving eye, and it just happened that Joseph was a bit of a dish (Genesis 39:6-7). If he had been spotty and cross-eyed, or Mrs P faithful to her husband, salvation would never have happened. You might expect that Potiphar would have had Joseph executed; I don’t suppose that a slave’s life was very precious in Egypt in 1,800 BC. But Potiphar freely decides merely to put him in jail. Perhaps he knew what his wife was like. The point is that all these things were arranged by God to bring His great plan of salvation about without overriding anyone’s free will or being the author of evil.

So why does the keeper of the prison commit all the other prisoners to Joseph (Genesis 39:22)? Because he knew that Joseph was capable and trustworthy (v.23); but also because it was necessary for Joseph to get to know the butler and the baker so that he could explain their dreams. Why did the baker have to be in jail? Obviously because he had upset Pharaoh somehow (Genesis 40:1-2), but also because by Joseph rightly interpreting two dreams the butler could see that Joseph interpreting his own dream was not a fluke. Why did the butler forget all about Joseph (Genesis 40:23)? Because he was an ungrateful wretch with a poor memory, but also because Joseph could not be freed until Pharaoh had had his dreams. If Pharaoh had freed him before, he would probably have gone back to Canaan and had a big confrontation with his brothers. There would have been no one to interpret Pharaoh’s dream, no food in Egypt, the Patriarchs would probably have starved and Joseph would not have been a type of Christ. What the butler did (or didn’t do) perfectly freely, God had ordained from all eternity to bring about His righteous purposes.

I could go on, but I think I’ve done enough to show that every step in Joseph’s life was ordained by God (c.f. Psalms 139:10) so that he could play his part in bringing about salvation to the world by Jesus Christ, but in such a way that Joseph and everyone else were entirely responsible for their own actions, and God is not the author of sin.

Martin you said “I would now like to investigate God’s sovereignty in the life of Joseph. I have chosen this part of the Bible because it is an extended narrative where I believe God’s absolute control of events may be plainly seen.” Then we see the terms perfectly freely X 2; free will X 3; Potiphar decided X 1; freely chose X 1; freely decides X 1; and we must not forget Mrs Potiphar had a roving eye. While I do not disagree that Gods plan will be brought to completion as He has planned. You state that God has absolute control of events but this does not leave room for the idea of anyone making any decisions. There is a big difference between being in control and controlling.

Calvinists have redefined the meaning of the word sovereignty as “divine determinism”. The belief that God determines, causes, and orchestrates everything in history according to His preconceived plan. Logically that has to include sin and evil.

Now I can look at the same story of Joseph and see God as sovereign and that all the players therein had free will. For me there is no contradiction because God is indeed sovereign and as such has given man a freed will.

 

[AustinC]

Martin you said “I would now like to investigate God’s sovereignty in the life of Joseph. I have chosen this part of the Bible because it is an extended narrative where I believe God’s absolute control of events may be plainly seen.” Then we see the terms perfectly freely X 2; free will X 3; Potiphar decided X 1; freely chose X 1; freely decides X 1; and we must not forget Mrs Potiphar had a roving eye. While I do not disagree that Gods plan will be brought to completion as He has planned. You state that God has absolute control of events but this does not leave room for the idea of anyone making any decisions. There is a big difference between being in control and controlling.

Calvinists have redefined the meaning of the word sovereignty as “divine determinism”. The belief that God determines, causes, and orchestrates everything in history according to His preconceived plan. Logically that has to include sin and evil.

Now I can look at the same story of Joseph and see God as sovereign and that all the players therein had free will. For me there is no contradiction because God is indeed sovereign and as such has given man a freed will.

Define how "free" man's will is when in competition with God's will. In a fight, which beings will would win out? If, for some reason, God determines to do something, does man have the power to stop God from doing what God determines to do?

 

[SGO]

Don't forget the balance of the sentence.

Eph 1:12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.
Eph 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

Context Context Context.

Text, text, text.

him who worketh
all things
after the counsel of his own will:

 

[Silverhair]

Text, text, text.

him who worketh
all things
after the counsel of his own will:

Just throwing out random words does not add anything to the discussion.

At the least quote the whole sentence.

Eph 1:11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,
Eph 1:12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.

context matters

 

[SGO]

all things

 

[AustinC]

Just throwing out random words does not add anything to the discussion.

At the least quote the whole sentence.

Eph 1:11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,
Eph 1:12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.

context matters

The context does not support free will... especially when you add the next verse.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

You state that God has absolute control of events but this does not leave room for the idea of anyone making any decisions. There is a big difference between being in control and controlling.

My O.P. is to show that God does indeed have absolute control of events, and yet people do indeed make their own decisions. That is what the Bible teaches, and not only in the case of Joseph but in the case of our Lord Himself as @kyredneck pointed out.

25 who by the Holy Spirit, by the mouth of our father David thy servant, didst say, Why did the Gentiles rage, And the peoples imagine vain things?
26 The kings of the earth set themselves in array, And the rulers were gathered together, Against the Lord, and against his Anointed:
27 for of a truth in this city against thy holy Servant Jesus, whom thou didst anoint, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, were gathered together,
28 to do whatsoever thy hand and thy council foreordained to come to pass. Acts 4

Let me confess that I don't know how He does that, any more than you do, but it is no use throwing up our hands like Nicodemus and saying, "How can these things be?" They are so, and the Bible clearly proclaims them to be so, and we just have to fall down on our knees and worship like Paul: "Oh the depths of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgements and His ways past finding out! 'For who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has become His counselor?' Or 'who has first given to Him, and it shall be repaid to Him?' For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen' (Romans 11:33-36, referencing Isaiah 40:13-14; Jeremiah 23:18; Job 36:22; 41:11-12).

 

[kyredneck]

Let me confess that I don't know how He does that, any more than you do

The fact that He's actually close and not far away, and we're immersed in Him, helps me to understand it a little, maybe...

27 that they should seek God, if haply they might feel after him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us:
28 for in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain even of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring. Acts 17

 

[Silverhair]

No contradiction. We make our own choices and are responsible for those choices. The part none of us know is how God causes His sovereignty and human responsibility to work together. The person who comes down on the side of free will faces the same conundrum. If you say that Joseph could have thwarted God's plan, then God really is not sovereign. Both sides are forced to admit that there is a degree of mystery involved. That used to bother me until I dwelt on God's words through Isaiah the prophet. "My thoughts are not your thoughts, nor or your ways My ways" (Isaiah 55:8). Paul would later write in 1 Corinthians 13:12, "For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully, just as I also have been fully known." We take what God has clearly revealed in His word and trust in that. The rest? We go back to what we do know and then accept the rest by faith. For example, we know God's will of decree cannot be changed by man. Even when we read about God changing His mind, that is according to human understanding. God never changes (Malachi 3:6). So, since we know God is immutable and no plan of His can be stopped, delayed, or altered by man; we must accept that God allows human choice to exist within the greater sphere of that plan. Since no one can adequately dissect the two (God's sovereignty and man's responsibility), we are forced to accept what we do not know based on what we do know.

Will this change your mind? No. Of course not. Is my explanation satisfactory to you? I suppose the answer to that is no as well. But to quote the great unknown American, James Cashman, "It is what it is."

Fully agree, we are responsible for the choices we make because we have a free will which our sovereign God gave us. Is God sovereign, most assuredly. Does God have a plan that He is working out for His creation? YES Can anything stop that plan? NO

We first see a glimpse of Gods’ plan in Gen 3:15 and it carries on through the OT up to Christ Jesus and His crucifixion that paid humanities sin debt. He was raised the third day for our salvation. Salvation is available to all that will freely place their faith in our risen saviour, Christ Jesus. His plan carries on through Revelation to the end of the age when all will be judged. Some to glory some to perdition.

When you write "We make our own choices and are responsible for those choices." you are agreeing that man has a free will but the LBCF and Calvinist teaching, that you seem to hold to, say we do not. For Calvinists, God has to control all things via divine determinism.

"God is incapable of knowing an undetermined future, and therefore, for God to be omniscient and all-knowing, no future could be left undetermined, or better yet, unscripted." (James White, Debating Calvinism, p.163)

Theologically blotting out the human free will eventually silences any appeal for sinners to take seriously Christ’s “Come unto Me, all. . .” {Mat_11:28}. As far as lost humanity is concerned, the God they would like to meet is not a Deity of limited love depicted in Calvinism or the LBCF, but the God of “whosoever will” heard in the voices of the Holy Spirit and Christ’s Bride, the Church {Rev_22:17}.

I can tell anyone that God loves them and will save them if they will put their trust in Christ Jesus. As a Calvinist you can not do that in all honesty as that person my not be one of your so call elect. Calvinists must obscure there true view of salvation with coded words and or miss quoted scripture.

Speaking for myself, I do not had a problem with Gods' sovereignty and mans' free will. All through the bible we find that man has to make the choice for God or to reject God. The choices man makes will not thwart the will of God or derail His plan for His creation.

One point that I strongly disagree with you on is your view "God's will of decree". The LBCF is, to be blunt, God dishonouring. They have taken the character of God and thrown it in the mud.

How you can equate God who is the standard for love {1Jn 4:8; 16} with the god that is portrayed in the LBCF is frankly beyond me. The LBCF portrays a god that decrees that vastly more people are condemn to hell for his glory than are saved through the death of his son on the cross. Do you not see a problem here? The bible shows us a God of Love and Mercy this is not what we find in the LBCF or Calvinism.

LBCF

CHAPTER 3; OF GOD’S DECREE

Paragraph 4. These angels and men thus predestinated and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed, and their number so certain and definite, that it cannot be either increased or diminished.

And to quote you “Will this change your mind? No. Of course not. Is my explanation satisfactory to you? I suppose the answer to that is no as well.”

We will continue to disagree while we strive to comprehend God and the plan He has for His creation.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

@Silverhair,
You are speaking of things that you do not understand and are not prepared to take the trouble to find out.

1689 Confession, IX. 'Of Free will'

God has endued the will of man with that natural liberty and power of acting upon choice, that it is neither forced, nor by any necessity of nature determined to do good or evil.1
1 Matthew 17:12; James 1:14; Deuteronomy 30:19

Man, in his state of innocency, had freedom and power to will and to do that which was good and well-pleasing to God,2 but yet was unstable, so that he might fall from it.3
2. Ecclesiastes 7:29. 3. Genesis 3:6.

Man, by his fall into a state of sin, has wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation;4 so as a natural man, being altogether averse from that good, and dead in sin,5 is not able by his own strength to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto.6
4 Romans 5:6, 8:7. 5 Ephesians 2:1,5. 6 Titus 3:3–5; John 6:44

When God converts a sinner, and translates him into the state of grace, He frees him from his natural bondage under sin,7 and by His grace alone enables him freely to will and to do that which is spiritually good;8 yet so as that by reason of his remaining corruptions, he does not perfectly, nor only will, that which is good, but does also will that which is evil.9
7 Colossians 1:13; John 8:36 8 Philippians 2:13 9 Romans 7:15–23

This will of man is made perfectly and immutably free to good alone in the state of glory only.10
10 Ephesians 4:13

So the 1689 Confession is absolutely clear that man is able to make his own choices, and is indeed responsible for them. His inability to please God is due to his own sinfulness. John 3:19 again. 'Whoever will may come' most certainly, but men and women will not come to Christ (John 5:40) because they have sinful, unrepentant hearts.

As far as lost humanity is concerned, the God they would like to meet is not a Deity of limited love depicted in Calvinism or the LBCF, but the God of “whosoever will” heard in the voices of the Holy Spirit and Christ’s Bride, the Church {Revelation 22:17}.

The trouble is that the god you describe does not love anyone enough to save them. My God loved me enough, not merely to offer me salvation but to save me when I was dead in trespasses and sins (Ephesians 2:4-5).

I can tell anyone that God loves them and will save them if they will put their trust in Christ Jesus. As a Calvinist you can not do that in all honesty as that person my not be one of your so call elect. Calvinists must obscure there true view of salvation with coded words and or misquoted scripture.

You should not speak of what you do not know. Clearly you have never read any sermons by Bunyan, Whitefield or Spurgeon who pleaded with sinners in the most direct way to come to Christ. I can, and do, tell anyone that if he will trust in Christ, God will save him. What I will not do is tell people under the wrath of God that He loves them, because it may not be true (Psalms 5:4-6). Please point to me the chapter and verses in Acts where Peter or Paul told unconverted people that God loved them.
I came to Christ relatively late in life and at various times Christians would come to me and tell me how much God loved me and wouldn't I come to Him. I was always happy to hear it because it confirmed to me that I didn't need to repent of my sins because God loved me just as I was. But it didn't make me trust in Christ. It wasn't until God opened my eyes to understand that I was a sinner under the righteous wrath of a holy Deity, that I was humbled and came to Christ for forgiveness.

The LBCF portrays a god that decrees that vastly more people are condemn to hell for his glory than are saved through the death of his son on the cross.

And where exactly does the LBCF say that? Can you point me to the exact place, please? It is not good to tell lies about people, even if they are long dead.
In Revelation 7:9-10, we see a vision of a vast crowd of people 'that no man could number' standing before the throne. Now answer me two questions, please:
1. If no man can number them, who are you to say that you can do so and find them too few?
2. How does the crowd get either bigger or smaller if one is a Calvinist, Arminian or Pelagian?

 

[Humble Disciple]

I could go on, but I think I’ve done enough to show that every step in Joseph’s life was ordained by God (c.f. Psalms 139:10) so that he could play his part in bringing about salvation to the world by Jesus Christ, but in such a way that Joseph and everyone else were entirely responsible for their own actions, and God is not the author of sin.

I am a little apprehensive when some Calvinists go too far when it comes to God's sovereignty. I believe that Calvinism and compatibilism can co-exist.

The first is the story of Joseph and his brothers (Genesis 37). Joseph was hated by his brothers because their father, Jacob, loved Joseph more than any of his other sons (Genesis 37:3) and because of Joseph’s dreams and their interpretation (Genesis 37:5-11). At an opportune time, Joseph’s brothers sold him as a slave to traveling Midianite traders. Then they dipped his tunic in the blood of a slain goat in order to deceive their father into thinking Joseph had been mauled by a beast (Genesis 37:18-33). After many years, during which Joseph had been blessed by the Lord, Joseph’s brothers meet him in Egypt, and Joseph reveals himself to them (Genesis 45:3-4). It is Joseph’s discussion with his brothers that is most pertinent to the issue:

“So then, it was not you who sent me here, but God. He made me father to Pharaoh, lord of his entire household and ruler of all Egypt” (Genesis 45:8).

What makes this statement startling is that Joseph had previously said his brothers had, in fact, sold him into Egypt (Genesis 45:4-5). A few chapters later, the concept of compatibilism is presented:

“You intended to harm me, but God intended it for good to accomplish what is now being done, the saving of many lives” (Genesis 50:20).

The Genesis story tells us that it was, in fact, the brothers who sold Joseph into Egypt. However, Joseph makes it clear that God had done so. Those who reject the concept of compatibilism would say that this verse is simply stating that God “used” Joseph’s brothers’ actions for good. However, this is not what the text says. From Genesis 45-50, we are told that (1) Joseph’s brothers had sent Joseph to Egypt, (2) God had sent Joseph to Egypt, (3) Joseph’s brothers had evil intentions in sending Joseph to Egypt, and (4) God had good intentions in sending Joseph to Egypt. So, the question is, who sent Joseph to Egypt? The bewildering answer is that both Joseph’s brothers and God did. It was one action being carried out by two entities, the brothers and God doing it simultaneously.
What is compatibilism? | GotQuestions.org