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The Sovereignty of God in the life of Joseph

S

SGO

Well-Known Member
The bible goes too far.

But our God is in the heavens:
he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased.
Psalm 115:3

"Let me confess that I don't know how He does that, any more than you do..."
Martin Marprelate post #16
 
Silverhair

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
Martin Marprelate said:
@Silverhair,
You are speaking of things that you do not understand and are not prepared to take the trouble to find out.

1689 Confession, IX. 'Of Free will'

God has endued the will of man with that natural liberty and power of acting upon choice, that it is neither forced, nor by any necessity of nature determined to do good or evil.1
1 Matthew 17:12; James 1:14; Deuteronomy 30:19

Man, in his state of innocency, had freedom and power to will and to do that which was good and well-pleasing to God,2 but yet was unstable, so that he might fall from it.3
2. Ecclesiastes 7:29. 3. Genesis 3:6.

Man, by his fall into a state of sin, has wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation;4 so as a natural man, being altogether averse from that good, and dead in sin,5 is not able by his own strength to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto.6
4 Romans 5:6, 8:7. 5 Ephesians 2:1,5. 6 Titus 3:3–5; John 6:44

When God converts a sinner, and translates him into the state of grace, He frees him from his natural bondage under sin,7 and by His grace alone enables him freely to will and to do that which is spiritually good;8 yet so as that by reason of his remaining corruptions, he does not perfectly, nor only will, that which is good, but does also will that which is evil.9
7 Colossians 1:13; John 8:36 8 Philippians 2:13 9 Romans 7:15–23

This will of man is made perfectly and immutably free to good alone in the state of glory only.10
10 Ephesians 4:13

So the 1689 Confession is absolutely clear that man is able to make his own choices, and is indeed responsible for them. His inability to please God is due to his own sinfulness. John 3:19 again. 'Whoever will may come' most certainly, but men and women will not come to Christ (John 5:40) because they have sinful, unrepentant hearts.

The trouble is that the god you describe does not love anyone enough to save them. My God loved me enough, not merely to offer me salvation but to save me when I was dead in trespasses and sins (Ephesians 2:4-5).

You should not speak of what you do not know. Clearly you have never read any sermons by Bunyan, Whitefield or Spurgeon who pleaded with sinners in the most direct way to come to Christ. I can, and do, tell anyone that if he will trust in Christ, God will save him. What I will not do is tell people under the wrath of God that He loves them, because it may not be true (Psalms 5:4-6). Please point to me the chapter and verses in Acts where Peter or Paul told unconverted people that God loved them.
I came to Christ relatively late in life and at various times Christians would come to me and tell me how much God loved me and wouldn't I come to Him. I was always happy to hear it because it confirmed to me that I didn't need to repent of my sins because God loved me just as I was. But it didn't make me trust in Christ. It wasn't until God opened my eyes to understand that I was a sinner under the righteous wrath of a holy Deity, that I was humbled and came to Christ for forgiveness.

And where exactly does the LBCF say that? Can you point me to the exact place, please? It is not good to tell lies about people, even if they are long dead.
In Revelation 7:9-10, we see a vision of a vast crowd of people 'that no man could number' standing before the throne. Now answer me two questions, please:
1. If no man can number them, who are you to say that you can do so and find them too few?
2. How does the crowd get either bigger or smaller if one is a Calvinist, Arminian or Pelagian?
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Actually Martin it is not that I do not understand, it is because I do understand the problems that are found in the LBCF and Calvinism. You refuse to see what is right in front of you.

I have asked you how you can reconcile “God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass”. Which clearly says that God controls all things does it not? With “...yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin...” Logic and a plain reading of the text shows that they have made God the author of all things which includes sin. And that is clearly an unbiblical view. Why you continue to cling to this errant document while throwing Gods’ character under the bus I will never understand.
 
A

AustinC

Well-Known Member
Silverhair said:
Actually Martin it is not that I do not understand, it is because I do understand the problems that are found in the LBCF and Calvinism. You refuse to see what is right in front of you.

I have asked you how you can reconcile “God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass”. Which clearly says that God controls all things does it not? With “...yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin...” Logic and a plain reading of the text shows that they have made God the author of all things which includes sin. And that is clearly an unbiblical view. Why you continue to cling to this errant document while throwing Gods’ character under the bus I will never understand.
Click to expand...
Why is it so hard to grasp that God is Sovereign and allows both good and evil without being the cause of evil?
It's as if you have created a conundrum just to confuse yourself.
 
Silverhair

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
AustinC said:
Why is it so hard to grasp that God is Sovereign and allows both good and evil without being the cause of evil?
It's as if you have created a conundrum just to confuse yourself.
Click to expand...

Austin read your own documents LBCF, WCF, Calvain Inst.,
etc. your whole theology requires that your version of God controls ALL THINGS. You have put God in a box called divine determinism, you can not allow God to be God. God is sovereign but you will not allow Him to be so. He has to act the way your theology states. You can not allow for free will, that is the ability to make contrary choices. Your theology requires all things to be scripted. But that is not reality.
 
M

Martin Marprelate

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Silverhair said:
Actually Martin it is not that I do not understand, it is because I do understand the problems that are found in the LBCF and Calvinism. You refuse to see what is right in front of you.

I have asked you how you can reconcile “God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass”. Which clearly says that God controls all things does it not? With “...yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin...” Logic and a plain reading of the text shows that they have made God the author of all things which includes sin. And that is clearly an unbiblical view. Why you continue to cling to this errant document while throwing Gods’ character under the bus I will never understand.
Click to expand...
I don't think there's much point in continiung our discussion. I can only suggest that you read through the thread again.
As a much-missed former moderator of this forum used to say, I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you.
 
A

AustinC

Well-Known Member
Silverhair said:
Austin read your own documents LBCF, WCF, Calvain Inst.,
etc. your whole theology requires that your version of God controls ALL THINGS. You have put God in a box called divine determinism, you can not allow God to be God. God is sovereign but you will not allow Him to be so. He has to act the way your theology states. You can not allow for free will, that is the ability to make contrary choices. Your theology requires all things to be scripted. But that is not reality.
Click to expand...
...so...you want a God for whom some things are out of control so that your God is taken by surprise and unaware of what is happening...
Why would you prefer such a God where He is less than perfect?
 
M

Martin Marprelate

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
SavedByGrace said:
the usual cop-out! :eek:
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If either you or @Silverhair has a substantial point to raise that has not already been answered, I will do my best to answer it. But I see no point in going through the thread going 'tis,' tisn't' and getting more and more heated. Silverhair wrote:
Logic and a plain reading of the text shows that they have made God the author of all things which includes sin.
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The writers of the 1689 Confession have specifically refuted that (see the OP). I cannot be responsible for someone using his fallen human logic to probe the deep things of God and find them unsatisfactory.
 
SavedByGrace

SavedByGrace

Well-Known Member
Martin Marprelate said:
The writers of the 1689 Confession
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God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein

This is what is called unbiblical double-talk! Either God has "decreed" WHATSOEVER COMES TO PASS, which therefore MUST include sins, (or else it is an abuse of the term WHATSOEVER), or He has not! Both cannot be right, regardless of how you or any other reformed might try to represent it! Either this term means ALL, or it does not, and the English usage means ALL, with NO exceptions!. Go figure
 
M

Martin Marprelate

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
@SavedByGrace,
You have done the exact thing that I spoke of in my last post. You have applied your human logic to probe the deep things of God and, hey presto, you are like Nicodemus crying out, "How can these things be?"
You will not look at the Bible proof texts provided in the OP, nor do you deal with the life of Joseph which I outlined. You have placed yourself in the position of the Sadducees, knowing neither the Scriptures nor the power of God.
 
A

AustinC

Well-Known Member
SavedByGrace said:
God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein

This is what is called unbiblical double-talk! Either God has "decreed" WHATSOEVER COMES TO PASS, which therefore MUST include sins, (or else it is an abuse of the term WHATSOEVER), or He has not! Both cannot be right, regardless of how you or any other reformed might try to represent it! Either this term means ALL, or it does not, and the English usage means ALL, with NO exceptions!. Go figure
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Sigh...the distinction is lost on you...
 
S

SGO

Well-Known Member
With your theological knowledge and many helpful posts it is disheartening to read curt put downs of people who do not agree with you.
 
Silverhair

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
Martin Marprelate said:
I don't think there's much point in continiung our discussion. I can only suggest that you read through the thread again.
As a much-missed former moderator of this forum used to say, I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you.
Click to expand...

I agree I can try to point out the errors in the logic of the LBCF etc but can not make you see or accept them. I would suggest you read through the LBCF again without the calvinist lens.
 
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