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Featured The Sovereignty of God in the life of Joseph

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Martin Marprelate, Jul 4, 2021.

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  1. SGO

    SGO Well-Known Member

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    The bible goes too far.

    But our God is in the heavens:
    he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased.
    Psalm 115:3

    "Let me confess that I don't know how He does that, any more than you do..."
    Martin Marprelate post #16
     
    #21 SGO, Jul 7, 2021
  2. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    Actually Martin it is not that I do not understand, it is because I do understand the problems that are found in the LBCF and Calvinism. You refuse to see what is right in front of you.

    I have asked you how you can reconcile “God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass”. Which clearly says that God controls all things does it not? With “...yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin...” Logic and a plain reading of the text shows that they have made God the author of all things which includes sin. And that is clearly an unbiblical view. Why you continue to cling to this errant document while throwing Gods’ character under the bus I will never understand.
     
    #22 Silverhair, Jul 7, 2021
  3. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Why is it so hard to grasp that God is Sovereign and allows both good and evil without being the cause of evil?
    It's as if you have created a conundrum just to confuse yourself.
     
    #23 AustinC, Jul 7, 2021
  4. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    Austin read your own documents LBCF, WCF, Calvain Inst.,
    etc. your whole theology requires that your version of God controls ALL THINGS. You have put God in a box called divine determinism, you can not allow God to be God. God is sovereign but you will not allow Him to be so. He has to act the way your theology states. You can not allow for free will, that is the ability to make contrary choices. Your theology requires all things to be scripted. But that is not reality.
     
    #24 Silverhair, Jul 8, 2021
  5. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    if Joseph "could not" have done otherwise, then he would be a "wind up toy"!
     
    #25 SavedByGrace, Jul 8, 2021
  6. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    are you saying that there are somethings that are out of the Ultimate Control of God?
     
    #26 SavedByGrace, Jul 8, 2021
  7. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    I don't think there's much point in continiung our discussion. I can only suggest that you read through the thread again.
    As a much-missed former moderator of this forum used to say, I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you.
     
    #27 Martin Marprelate, Jul 8, 2021
  8. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    the usual cop-out! :eek:
     
    #28 SavedByGrace, Jul 8, 2021
  9. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    ...so...you want a God for whom some things are out of control so that your God is taken by surprise and unaware of what is happening...
    Why would you prefer such a God where He is less than perfect?
     
    #29 AustinC, Jul 8, 2021
  10. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    If either you or @Silverhair has a substantial point to raise that has not already been answered, I will do my best to answer it. But I see no point in going through the thread going 'tis,' tisn't' and getting more and more heated. Silverhair wrote:
    The writers of the 1689 Confession have specifically refuted that (see the OP). I cannot be responsible for someone using his fallen human logic to probe the deep things of God and find them unsatisfactory.
     
    #30 Martin Marprelate, Jul 8, 2021
  11. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein

    This is what is called unbiblical double-talk! Either God has "decreed" WHATSOEVER COMES TO PASS, which therefore MUST include sins, (or else it is an abuse of the term WHATSOEVER), or He has not! Both cannot be right, regardless of how you or any other reformed might try to represent it! Either this term means ALL, or it does not, and the English usage means ALL, with NO exceptions!. Go figure
     
    #31 SavedByGrace, Jul 8, 2021
    • Agree Agree x 1
  12. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    @SavedByGrace,
    You have done the exact thing that I spoke of in my last post. You have applied your human logic to probe the deep things of God and, hey presto, you are like Nicodemus crying out, "How can these things be?"
    You will not look at the Bible proof texts provided in the OP, nor do you deal with the life of Joseph which I outlined. You have placed yourself in the position of the Sadducees, knowing neither the Scriptures nor the power of God.
     
    #32 Martin Marprelate, Jul 8, 2021
  13. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Sigh...the distinction is lost on you...
     
    #33 AustinC, Jul 8, 2021
  14. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    coming from someone of your theology, is a JOKE! :Roflmao
     
    #34 SavedByGrace, Jul 8, 2021
  15. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    In football (soccer) parlance, this is known as playing the man and not the ball. Why not post something substantive, dealing with the Bible proof texts and the life of Joseph?
     
    #35 Martin Marprelate, Jul 8, 2021
  16. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    this clip by MacArthur also answers the account of Joseph

    Twin Truths: God’s Sovereignty and Man’s Responsibility
     
    #36 SavedByGrace, Jul 8, 2021
  17. SGO

    SGO Well-Known Member

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    With your theological knowledge and many helpful posts it is disheartening to read curt put downs of people who do not agree with you.
     
    #37 SGO, Jul 8, 2021
  18. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    and WHO is this addressed to?
     
    #38 SavedByGrace, Jul 8, 2021
  19. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    No. I am saying that God is in control/sovereign but He is not controlling everything as in meticulous divine determinism.
     
    #39 Silverhair, Jul 8, 2021
  20. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    I agree I can try to point out the errors in the logic of the LBCF etc but can not make you see or accept them. I would suggest you read through the LBCF again without the calvinist lens.
     
    #40 Silverhair, Jul 8, 2021
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