The Willingness of men

[AustinC]

Not looking for loopholes just asking how you reconcile your theology with the bible. What calvinism says does not square with the bible. I am just pointing out what the calvinist texts you support say.
No since in being upset with me you should be upset with calvinism.

There is nothing to reconcile. I have shared many passages that define what I believe. I actually read the Bible and believe what God tells me. That may be a novel thought to you, which you struggle with, but the Bible speaks God's words and I believe them. Do you?

 

[Salty]

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[Iconoclast]

His foreknowledge is of free-will decisions. For those whom He foreknew would exercise free-will toward God's Good News, he predestined a purpose to be conformed to the image of Christ. The Gospel is the call to which the foreknown answer (God knew they would of their free will). He also prepared a destiny in advance (predestined) for those whom He foresaw would answer the call. That destiny is justification and glorification.

This is what Romans is talking about.

Completely off the reservation and as written a form of fatalism.

 

[AustinC]

Completely off the reservation and as written a form of fatalism.

It is indeed a twisting of verses and purposeful adding of "free will" where the author of scripture does not make that addition. We can see that silverhair is forcing his philosophy into the Bible.

 

[MB]

There is nothing to reconcile. I have shared many passages that define what I believe. I actually read the Bible and believe what God tells me. That may be a novel thought to you, which you struggle with, but the Bible speaks God's words and I believe them. Do you?

Not true you believe what you add to scripture not what it actually says. If you actually believed in scripture alone you would believe as I do.
MB

 

[MB]

It is indeed a twisting of verses and purposeful adding of "free will" where the author of scripture does not make that addition. We can see that silverhair is forcing his philosophy into the Bible.

Accusing others of what you your self do. Typical Calvinist
MB

 

[MB]

Completely off the reservation and as written a form of fatalism.

A fatalist who blames others of doing what he does.
MB

 

[Silverhair]

Indeed, however, the difference between the redeemed and unredeemed is the Spirit who enables the redeemed person to respond to God. Those who are not redeemed cannot respond to God. They are dead in their sins. They are not made alive with Christ. They are not born again. They are not new creations. We see this in John 3, Ephesians 2, and 2 Corinthians 5.
No matter how you slice it, God must choose to redeem you. The Bible tells us that God chose before the foundation of the world. At some point you need to accept what God tells you.

I have to agree that you have to choose to accept it. We have just trust what the bible says but that requires that we have a free will. Austin you must realize that in order to accept something you have to be able to make a choice between options, accept or reject.

 

[AustinC]

Not true you believe what you add to scripture not what it actually says. If you actually believed in scripture alone you would believe as I do.
MB

MB, many have tried to correct you. You live on an island of one, yet you so boldly proclaim that you are the only one who actually reads the Bible and follows what it says. However, it has been demonstrated that you do not do this and in fact you have constructed a view that no ome else holds. Let that sink in for awhile.

 

[AustinC]

I have to agree that you have to choose to accept it. We have just trust what the bible says but that requires that we have a free will. Austin you must realize that in order to accept something you have to be able to make a choice between options, accept or reject.

Well duh!

Humans have a parameter within the ordained will of God, in which they can act upon their own thoughts. Not one person disagrees with this. However, that parameter does not make us free. Slaves had a parameter on the plantation in which to act as they chose, but they were still slaves, not free.
The Bible tells us that before God chose to make us alive with Christ, make us a new creation, make us born again, we lived as abject slaves to sin (the devil). We were bound in sin.
But God chose to ransom his chosen ones and free us from the shackles of sin. He bought us with a price and called us children. We now walk in the parameters of His gracious mercy and favor. We are not free. God's purchase of us makes us slaves to Righteousness. We act within the boundaries of God's ordained will.

Now, using scripture passages, show us how God teaches that human free will is what saved you. I await your scripture.

 

[ad finitum]

Indeed, however, the difference between the redeemed and unredeemed is the Spirit who enables the redeemed person to respond to God. Those who are not redeemed cannot respond to God.

Yes they can.

They are dead in their sins. They are not made alive with Christ. They are not born again. They are not new creations. We see this in John 3, Ephesians 2, and 2 Corinthians 5.

That's just misinterpretation. The lost sheep of the house of Israel are the chosen people of God who are gone astray, not heathen. The letters are all about believers. Look at the greetings. To the believers in this or that church. Non believers are not talked about. Any faithless people mentioned are believers. Believers can be faithless. Unbelieving heathen don't go to church. Unbelieving heathen are sitting listening to someone read letters from a Christian apostle. Context, context, context.

No matter how you slice it, God must choose to redeem you. The Bible tells us that God chose before the foundation of the world. At some point you need to accept what God tells you.

Satan would have us believe that nobody would choose God unless He tampered with their free will. They would always choose elsewhere. This is how Satan justifies his rebellion -- that God is unfair and that He is not a person worth knowing because nobody would choose Him if given the choice because of His tyranny and lack of intrinsic good. Nobody would see any good in God. The only way God can have servants is make puppets whose volition is not their own.

 

[MB]

Austin is incapable of understanding the truth. He is blinded by his Calvinism.
MB

 

[MB]

Well duh!

Humans have a parameter within the ordained will of God, in which they can act upon their own thoughts. Not one person disagrees with this. However, that parameter does not make us free. Slaves had a parameter on the plantation in which to act as they chose, but they were still slaves, not free.
The Bible tells us that before God chose to make us alive with Christ, make us a new creation, make us born again, we lived as abject slaves to sin (the devil). We were bound in sin.
But God chose to ransom his chosen ones and free us from the shackles of sin. He bought us with a price and called us children. We now walk in the parameters of His gracious mercy and favor. We are not free. God's purchase of us makes us slaves to Righteousness. We act within the boundaries of God's ordained will.

Now, using scripture passages, show us how God teaches that human free will is what saved you. I await your scripture.

There is no limit from God it is the Christians who holds back sin.
MB

 

[Dave G]

But when I have read through those texts I do not come to the same irresistible conclusion that you do.

I can very much see that, sir.

If a limited atonement, or irresistible grace as the calvinists have it were true then that inevitably leads to those that are not included under those headings being damned.

Yes, it does.
I see the Bible teaching both vessels of wrath fitted to destruction ( as in fitting one's self and God then using those sins to judge them ).
and vessels of mercy that He has before-hand prepared to glory, i.e. salvation and eternal life.

A people prepared for Him ( the "whosoever believeth", from the heart ), and the rest prepared for the Lake of Fire.
In other words, "double predestination" due to "irresistible grace" on the one hand, and "reprobation" on the other.

And since it is God that does it as you say then that would mean that God is the one the condemns them.

Well, I defininitely do not see us as men condemning ourselves to everlasting punishment,
so, yes, He is the one who does the condemning, as is His right.

The question is why would He condemn them.

For the sins that they have willfully committed against Him.

As this decision was made before time began then it cannot be based on sin or for that matter anything except Gods' choice.

To me, it's both.

Put another way, He judges righteous judgment...
Choosing to hold sinners accountable for willfully committed sins on the one hand, and choosing to bestow mercy through Jesus Christ to those who do not deserve His mercy and grace on the other.on the other.

He decides who to save and who to damn out of all of us unworthy sinners, and He does not leave that choice up to us.
If He did, according to just John 3:19-20, there'd be no takers.

 

[Dave G]

So when I say that calvinism has God condemn billions to hell it is not because the bible says He does, it does not, it is because calvinist theology makes it so.

That seems to be the difference between us, I suppose.
When I study God's word for myself ( without the help of men or theology books ),
I see that God chooses to condemn billions to Hell because the Bible says that He does, not because some man named John Calvin taught it.

So are we going to see the texts of scripture differently, I do believe. While you may feel that calvinism is biblical I have come to the opposite conclusion.

Regrettably, I can see that.

From all that I have read in calvinist texts or listened to from calvinists speakers I have to say I am not impressed.

I confess to not listening to them very much,
but when I do, I usually agree with a great many things that they have to say.

However,
I do shy away from the ones that are ungodly in their actions towards others, and I do not condone the actions of those who ridicule each other on either side of it.

On one hand they want to make God powerful so nothing is beyond Him then turn and say oh but He cannot do that and why because it does not fit into the calvinist theology.

If you're referring to "theology" as "how someone understands the Scripture", then yes, I suppose I do understand what you are saying.

I also believed very much the same as you appear to, when I was a much younger believer...
having been taught "Traditionalism / Provisionism" for over 25 years in Independent Baptist churches from the time that I first heard the Gospel preached in 1978.

I began to see things differently beginning in 2003, when I first started ignoring the various teachers and started seriously studying His words alone.

I will just read and study the bible as I have for the last 60+ yrs and trust in Christ Jesus for my salvation

As will I sir.

That said, I'll make this my final reply to you in this thread.
May God bless you richly.

 

[AustinC]

Yes they can.



That's just misinterpretation. The lost sheep of the house of Israel are the chosen people of God who are gone astray, not heathen. The letters are all about believers. Look at the greetings. To the believers in this or that church. Non believers are not talked about. Any faithless people mentioned are believers. Believers can be faithless. Unbelieving heathen don't go to church. Unbelieving heathen are sitting listening to someone read letters from a Christian apostle. Context, context, context.



Satan would have us believe that nobody would choose God unless He tampered with their free will. They would always choose elsewhere. This is how Satan justifies his rebellion -- that God is unfair and that He is not a person worth knowing because nobody would choose Him if given the choice because of His tyranny and lack of intrinsic good. Nobody would see any good in God. The only way God can have servants is make puppets whose volition is not their own.

Honestly, can you provide any passage in the Bible that expresses what you just said?

You have worked hard to change Paul's words to fit your theory, but you don't provide any teaching by Jesus or the Apostles that support your claim.

 

[AustinC]

There is no limit from God it is the Christians who holds back sin.
MB

Did God limit Balaam?

 

[Salty]

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