Real Soteriology 101

[Reformed1689]

In Soteriology 102

@Van claims that "through faith" in Ephesians 2:8 somehow means by reason of faith without providing any exegetical evidence. This is false. It is also false that Calvinists reject saved through faith. We embrace it fully. But we don't ignore the whole clause of the verse.

It is By grace...through faith. It is all one clause. One package. It is not two separate things. By grace through faith is the gift of God. Not just grace.

Grace is not God's part while faith is ours. No, that would be a salvation of works. Grace and Faith are both of God. Period.

God is the only one who saves. Christ is the author and finisher of our faith. It is given by Him to those He has chosen to save.

 

[Van]

In Soteriology 102

@Van claims that "through faith" in Ephesians 2:8 somehow means by reason of faith without providing any exegetical evidence. This is false. It is also false that Calvinists reject saved through faith. We embrace it fully. But we don't ignore the whole clause of the verse.

It is By grace...through faith. It is all one clause. One package. It is not two separate things. By grace through faith is the gift of God. Not just grace.

Grace is not God's part while faith is ours. No, that would be a salvation of works. Grace and Faith are both of God. Period.

God is the only one who saves. Christ is the author and finisher of our faith. It is given by Him to those He has chosen to save.

Why would anyone believe the false claim "without providing any exegetical evidence?" Was the Greek preposition (dia) presented as having both positional and instrumental meanings? Yes. Thus "exegetical" evidence as presented. Were the instrumental means presented? Yes, by means of, by reason of and because of. But still the post position is without providing any, repeat any exegetical evidence.

It is impossible to discuss biblical doctrine when truth is ignored by one or both sides. Was another meaning for "through" offered in contrast with "by reason of?" Yes, but that claim ignores unconditional election where we are chosen not through faith or anything else.

 

[Reformed1689]

Why would anyone believe the false claim "without providing any exegetical evidence?" Was the Greek preposition (dia) presented as having both positional and instrumental meanings? Yes. Thus "exegetical" evidence as presented. Were the instrumental means presented? Yes, by means of, by reason of and because of. But still the post position is without providing any, repeat any exegetical evidence.

It is impossible to discuss biblical doctrine when truth is ignored by one or both sides. Was another meaning for "through" offered in contrast with "by reason of?" Yes, but that claim ignores unconditional election where we are chosen not through faith or anything else.

@Van
I have one question for you. I don't want any "taint so" or "calinism this" etc, just answer this question. If you are right, how come not one single translator translates the verse by grace are you saved by reason of faith? Nobody translates it that way. Not one single expert. Why? Please answer that question.

 

[Van]

@Van
I have one question for you. I don't want any "taint so" or "calinism this" etc, just answer this question. If you are right, how come not one single translator translates the verse by grace are you saved by reason of faith? Nobody translates it that way. Not one single expert. Why? Please answer that question.

Since "through faith" means "by reason of faith" every translator agrees with me.

 

[Reformed1689]

Since "through faith" means "by reason of faith" every translator agrees with me.

That's not true though. Nor is that what through faith means. That is evidenced by the very lexicon you posted in the other thread. It can mean that, but there is no evidence it means that in this case whatsoever.

 

[Van]

That's not true though. Nor is that what through faith means. That is evidenced by the very lexicon you posted in the other thread. It can mean that, but there is no evidence it means that in this case whatsoever.

It does mean that! All you have is the unsupported "taint so."

 

[Reformed1689]

It does mean that! All you have is the unsupported "taint so."

Post the lexicon you cited again, it goes against what you are saying.

 

[Van]

Many verses suggest the faith which is the reason for God's blessings is our faith, not the fictional faith instilled by God.

Matthew 9:2, 22, 29; Mark 2:5; 5:34; 10:52; Luke 5:20; 7:50; 8:25, 48; 17:19; 18:42; 22:32; Romans 1:8; 12; 3:3; 4:5, 12, 16; 1 Corinthians 2:5; 15:14, 17; 2 Corinthians 10:15; Philippians 2:17; Colossians 1:4; 2:5; 1 Thessalonians 1:8; 3:2, 5, 10; 2 Thessalonians 1:3; Philemon 6; 1 Peter 1:9, 21; 2 Peter 1:5

All these verses are rewritten by liberal Calvinists to read "not their faith" or not my faith or not his faith and so on...​

 

[Van]

Post the lexicon you cited again, it goes against what you are saying.

Why don't you post it?

 

[Reformed1689]

Why don't you post it?

Because I don't remember the link.

 

[Van]

Because I don't remember the link.

You do not remember the link, but you quoted it, and now claim you know it does not support the "by reason of" instrumentality meaning of "dia!" Got it...

 

[Van]

Can you imagine how deeply flawed all those translations are which read (in over 30 verses) your faith, or my faith or his faith and so on. All need to be fixed with the Calvinist doctrine and read "not your faith" not my faith, not his faith, but the supernaturally instilled faith of Calvinism. Every time you see a reference to our faith, know that according to the inspired word, Calvinism is wrong.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Grace is not God's part while faith is ours. No, that would be a salvation of works. Grace and Faith are both of God. Period.

God is the only one who saves. Christ is the author and finisher of our faith. It is given by Him to those He has chosen to save.

'Salvation is of the LORD' Jonah 2:9.
'Salvation belongs to our God who sits upon the throne, and to the Lamb' Revelation 7:10.

 

[Reformed1689]

You do not remember the link, but you quoted it, and now claim you know it does not support the "by reason of" instrumentality meaning of "dia!" Got it...

Van yes, quoted it in another thread that was PAGES long. But I do remember telling you that even the defintion you cited wasn't even the primary definition. You literally took a lexicon, picked the definition that suited your purpose and forced that onto the text. Poor exegetical work.

 

[Reformed1689]

Can you imagine how deeply flawed all those translations are which read (in over 30 verses) your faith, or my faith or his faith and so on. All need to be fixed with the Calvinist doctrine and read "not your faith" not my faith, not his faith, but the supernaturally instilled faith of Calvinism. Every time you see a reference to our faith, know that according to the inspired word, Calvinism is wrong.

If I am given faith, it becomes my faith does it not? So you need to find a different way to debunk Calvinism, which you won't be able to.

 

[Van]

How were we chosen through faith in the truth (2 Thessalonians 2:13) if we were chosen individually for salvation unconditionally?

'Salvation is of the LORD' Jonah 2:9.
'Salvation belongs to our God who sits upon the throne, and to the Lamb' Revelation 7:10.

Yet another nonsense post. Is the fact salvation is all of the Lord and not one bit of man at issue? Nope
Does the post address the question? Nope

 

[Van]

Van yes, quoted it in another thread that was PAGES long. But I do remember telling you that even the defintion you cited wasn't even the primary definition. You literally took a lexicon, picked the definition that suited your purpose and forced that onto the text. Poor exegetical work.

More personal insult. Through faith means that faith is the reason for the action or more specifically faith as credited by God as righteousness is the means by which individuals obtain the blessing by God in view in the verse. Ephesians 2:8, saved by grace is the action, and the means by which the individual obtained the blessing is our faith as credited by God. See Romans 5:2.

 

[Van]

If I am given faith, it becomes my faith does it not? So you need to find a different way to debunk Calvinism, which you won't be able to.

LOL, now my faith is not mine but God's. So never mention that difference and refer to my faith but actually mean not my faith. God it...

Not to mention the problem that if God's faith is instilled, it would already be righteous. So all those verses where God credits faith as righteousness are for the purpose of misdirection, God credits God's faith as righteous so we would mistakenly think He is accepting our faith. God it again. Man ain't Calvinism wonderful...

 

[Dave G]

If I am given faith, it becomes my faith does it not?

Amen.

I see that that is how it goes from being the gift of God ( Ephesians 2:8 ), authored and finished by Jesus Christ ( Hebrews 12:2 ), being "of" Him ( Romans 3:21, Galatians 2:16-20, Galatians 3:22 ) and is something that not all men have ( 2 Thessalonians 3:2 )...

To being the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen ( Hebrews 11:1 ).

Not only does our faith save us in the earthly sense ( Luke 7:40, Mark 5:34, Luke 7:9, Luke 8:48, Luke 17:19, Luke 18:42, Matthew 9:22 ), but it shows ( and will show ) to the world that we are justified from our sins and by Christ's blood in the sight of men ( Romans 5:1 ), giving us access to His grace ( Romans 5:2 ) in order to deliver us from all our afflictions in this life.

Abraham experienced this, as did David, Jacob and many others.

This same God-given gift was used, by Abraham, to believe God ( Romans 4:1-25 ), and the Lord credited him with righteousness.
It was used by others to do many things as well ( Hebrews 11:2-40 ).

But we also know that believing God by faith is a work of His righteousness ( Romans 3:21-22, for the Lord to credit it as righteousness, means to me that it is indeed a work of God's righteousness due to all of man's works outside of Christ being filthy rags ),
Which Titus 3:4-7 tells us that even that did not save us eternally, as the believer is saved strictly by His mercy and grace:

" But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6 which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
7 that being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. "

It's ours as His children, and we have the privilege and honor to live by it.
"The just shall live by faith".

How and why is this?

" Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning." (James 1:17).

Because all of His gifts are good and perfect,
and since Jesus Christ perfected ( finished ) our faith ( Hebrews 12:2 ), we can be assured that it will never fail...even unto the death.

 

[Dave G]

@Reformed1689 :

"Real Soteriology 10-anything" is God's grace through Jesus Christ.... plus nothing.
Not even faith.

For the Lord to base His decision to save anyone on anything outside of Himself and His gifts, would be to rely on the efforts of men to gain His favor.
This would make His holy work of salvation, which no man can boast of, into something that we can ( even potentially ) boast in or take credit for...

and would also make it into works per Romans 11:5-6.

To use an analogy, adding just one condition to the Lord's perfect work of grace would be like taking a 5 gallon bucket of pure and refreshing spring water...
and introducing one tiny drop of raw sewage ( with all of it's parasites, bacteria and other nasty corruption ), to it.

That would absolutely ruin it, even if the contamination could not be seen.