• Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Real Soteriology 101

Status
Not open for further replies.

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
The problem of your “sticking to the Bible” is that you have not come to terms with certain Biblical principles that guide one into how they might embrace a Calvinist or Armenian (or some variation).

The general appeal and the indiscriminate sowing of seed does not translate into capacity to be redeemed.

The work of the Holy Spirit to the World does not present that all have some innate ability.

Because I hold a very high regard for the Authority of God I am regarded by some a Calvinistic thinker, yet to some Calvinists an Armenian.

if you do hold the Scriptures as your final authority, then listen to others presentations, present your own thinking, and see how the Spirit of God resolves the issue confirmed in your own mind.

Then you can say, I understand your point of view, and here is how I have concluded.

There is a point of common ground between the two extremes, and some are continuing to work toward that, but until then press on to the high calling of God.

Because I do hold to the text of the bible I may come across as unwilling to listen to other points of view. That is not my intent but having said that I cannot stand by and have the character of God or His word impugned.
Point of information here. It is not Calvinists that I disagree with it is Calvinism. I have spent time looking at it and dealing with those that support it but I do not see that it glorifies God.
 

Reformed1689

Well-Known Member
No I am saying that the Calvinist view is not the right one. You want to trust in that theology then go for it. I have said it before that Calvinism does not have any compelling evidence to support it. You have to take verses out of context or twist scripture to make it fit. If that works for you fine but I trust what I see in the bible.
I do not need God to control everything I think or do as it appears some of those on here do require. That is just their comfort zone.
that is laughable that you say I take verses out of context. That is exactly what the anti Calvinist position does. I get my theology from scripture nowhere else.
 

agedman

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
First of I think you should look up what Prevenient Grace is, it is not as you say a form of
irresistible influence. If it were then that would be the same as what the Calvinist posit. Just because God shows His grace toward us does not mean that all will respond in a positive way. Therein lays the major difference between the God of the bible and the god of Calvinism.

As I stated it a form not the same as. Both involve God doing an act, in which humans have no influence, in order to accomplish some goal.

So both do in some manner have a type or form of irresistible grace, most just don’t want to admit it.


Prevenient Grace broadly speaking, this is the grace that “goes before”—that grace which precedes human action and reflects God’s heart for his creation. It testifies to God’s being the initiator of any relationship with him and reveals him as one who pursues us.
You say "There is no Bible authority given for such a scheme" well I would suggest that these verses say differently:
Joh_1:9 “There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man.”
Joh_12:32 “And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.”
Rom_2:4 “Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?“
Tit_2:11 “For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men,”.

However intentional it may seem from a human perspective, there is no place seen in the Scriptures of such Grace in action, more pointedly, there is no reference associated with such Grace that gives substance to a foundational doctrine needed for support.

Rather, as the verses you demonstrate some may read into them some kind of “grace,” but that thinking is basically extra biblical and not worthy of more than a casual supposition.

Point 2] Are you saying that God does not love the world and does not want all to be saved? Just because all do not come to faith does not mean that God does not desire that does it? God loves His creation but He cannot force us to love Him, if He did then it would not be love on our part would it or for that matter on His.

Do not the Scripture state twice, once to Moses and quoted by Paul, “I will have mercy…”
Does not scripture also state, “Jacob I loved Esau…”

Point 3] Do you not agree that God is omnipotent? As I just said He could force people to act in whatever manner He chose but would a loving God do that? I say no, He would not.

Then what of Moses, Jonah, Saul/Paul,

What does Isaiah 40 say concerning this matter of God’s authority over folks.

Point 4] So what do you think the purpose of God is? I believe it is to have a saved people that love and worship Him. Would you not agree? So if that were not His intent but was instead it was to just pick out a select group and make them love Him, that's an oxymoron, then He could do it couldn't He.

Certainly, God has always had a remnant to love and worship him, but on His terms, not ours.

Do not present God as accountable to humankind.

Such is given in Romans 11:
28Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29For the gifts and the calling of God areirrevocable. 30For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, 31even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. 32For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.

33Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!

34“For who has known the mind of the Lord?
Or who has become His counselor?”
35“Or who has first given to Him
And it shall be repaid to him?
”​

Point 6] If God is all these, omnibenevolent, omnipotent, omniscient. Which He is then how can Calvinism be true. Would the God of this character force some to be with Him while at the same time rejecting all others by no fault of their own?

Just as God first loved us and therefore we now knowing such can shed such abroad in our hearts, the great mercy and Grace of God that brought us salvation compels us to distribute the seed not sparring the slightest corner of the world, knowing that God has both love and severity.
 

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
that is laughable that you say I take verses out of context. That is exactly what the anti Calvinist position does. I get my theology from scripture nowhere else.

Nice you think so but Calvinism does not work without doing that. You cannot even read basic text like Joh 3:16 without changing the meaning of words.
 

agedman

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Nice you think so but Calvinism does not work without doing that. You cannot even read basic text like Joh 3:16 without changing the meaning of words.

That statement would indicate you have a skewed view of how many treat the text.

Personally, I use it as a focus of much of verbal witnessing in which I engage others

.
 

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
That statement would indicate you have a skewed view of how many treat the text.

Personally, I use it as a focus of much of verbal witnessing in which I engage others

.

So do I but I do not say that it is about the elect as some of the Calvinists on here have said.
 

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
I did not say that either. I said world does not mean elect. Do not put words in my mouth.

So if world does not mean elect then who are the whosoever if not your elect. We can find that out by looking at the context
Joh 3:14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up,
Joh 3:15 that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.
For God So Loved the World
Joh 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
Joh 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.
Joh 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.
The whosoever are those that trust in the risen Christ.
 

Reformed1689

Well-Known Member
So if world does not mean elect then who are the whosoever if not your elect. We can find that out by looking at the context
Joh 3:14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up,
Joh 3:15 that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.
For God So Loved the World
Joh 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
Joh 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.
Joh 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.
The whosoever are those that trust in the risen Christ.
whosoever is a subset of world. They are not the same thing. So I'm glad you agree with my viewpoint.
 

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
whosoever is a subset of world. They are not the same thing. So I'm glad you agree with my viewpoint.

The whosoever are those of the world that freely place their trust in Christ Jesus for salvation. So no I do not agree with your limited salvation view. The only limit is placed by those that freely trust in Christ Jesus not by God selecting a group to the exclusion of all others as you posit. Your Calvinist limited salvation view is not biblical.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top