Real Soteriology 101

[Dave G]

What little I understand of Greek grammar the subject in Ephesians 2:8 are in three sets of words, "saved," "that," and "the gift.". The "that" refers to "the gift" which refers to "saved."

I believe that the translators of the AV did a good job rendering the Greek correctly into the English.
Given that, I don't see how "saved", a verb, could be described by "that not of yourselves" and "the gift of God" when "that" is a pronoun referring to "faith".

I'm sorry, but I'll have to disagree.

 

[SavedByGrace]

Not to repeat myself from other threads, SBG, but if you see that salvation cannot be earned,
then why do you tell people that their belief and repentance leads to their salvation, instead of those things being evidences of it?

Because the Bible says that

 

[agedman]

Edwards is the man who wrote that strange tract about sinners in the hands of an angry God.

Actually, it wasn’t a tract, but a sermon read to the attendees.

On this day in history, Jonathan Edwards started a sermon that he did not finish. Such was the impact of his preaching that the people listening shrieked and cried out, and the crying and weeping became so loud that Edwards was forced to discontinue the sermon. Instead, the pastors went down among the people and prayed with them in groups. Many came to a saving knowledge of Christ that day. (Taken from: This Day in History: Jonathan Edwards Preaches “Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God”)
​

I would suggest you read much from Edwards. He was a truly remarkable man that was of outstanding character and devotion.

He confronted people’s complacency, and led by example.

Perhaps if read more from his writings you would be less inclined to be critical.

 

[Dave G]

Because the Bible says that

Not from my perspective it doesn't, especially with election in view.
Scripture tells us why people believe and why they do not, and it uses very selective language.

If I may ask, are those passages not important to you?
Do they not give you more information on Who is behind how and why someone repents and believes on Christ?
For example, context notwithstanding, what does this say to you ( I'll tell you after the passage what it says to me )?

" And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed." ( Acts of the Apostles 13:48 ). <----- The reason they believed, was because they were ordained to eternal life.

and this?

" For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake; " ( Philippians 1:29 ) <------ It is given to believe on Him....and to suffer for His sake.

How about this?

" Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father’s name, they bear witness of me.
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you." ( John 10:25-26 ). <---- "You don't believe, because you're not my sheep", which tells me that a person must first be one of His sheep, before they believe....election, just as Romans 8:29-30, Romans 9:13-24, 1 Corinthians 1:18-31, Ephesians 1:3-11, Ephesians 2:1-10, 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 and many other places tell me.

 

[37818]

. . . belief and repentance leads to their salvation, . . .

You really got it wrong. Repentance which God gives precedes belief in the gospel (Mark 1:15). 2 Timothy 2:25.

 

[Reformed1689]

Not to repeat myself from other threads, SBG, but if you see that salvation cannot be earned,
then why do you tell people that their belief and repentance leads to their salvation, instead of those things being evidences of it?

This is the million dollar question.

 

[37818]

I believe that the translators of the AV did a good job rendering the Greek correctly into the English.
Given that, I don't see how "saved", a verb, could be described by "that not of yourselves" and "the gift of God" when "that" is a referring to "faith".

You did not get it right. "The gift" refers to "saved" in "By grace are ye saved." The "that" refers to "the gift" in "the gift of God." " . . . that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: . . ."

 

[Reformed1689]

You did not get it right. "The gift" refers to "saved" in "By grace are ye saved." The "that" refers to "the gift" in "the gift of God." " . . . that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: . . ."

The gift is "by grace are you saved through faith"

 

[Dave G]

Repentance which God gives precedes belief in the gospel (Mark 1:15). 2 Timothy 2:25.

" and saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel." ( Mark 1:15 ).

In the above I see the Lord Jesus telling those He preached to, to do two things. I don't see that this is the order that people are to do them in.

" And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,
25 in meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
26 and that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will." ( 2 Timothy 2:24-26 ).

In the above I see that the Lord gives to people the very same thing that @SavedByGrace says that He requires for salvation.

 

[Dave G]

You did not get it right.

Respectfully, I have the right to understand it the way that I do, and you have the same right to understand it differently, sir.
When I read it in English, I see it the way that I have explained it.

"The gift" refers to "saved" in "By grace are ye saved." The "that" refers to "the gift" in "the gift of God." " . . . that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: . . ."

I agree with the last half of the above, which I've underlined.
If that's your opinion, then I respect that... but find that I must ( politely ) disagree.

At any rate, I bear you no ill will, and I wish God's blessings upon you.

 

[37818]

The gift is "by grace are you saved through faith"

In the Greek "saved" is the subject, not the, "through faith."

 

[37818]

Respectfully, I have the right to understand it the way that I do, . . .

So because you do not want to agree, that gives you the right to mistepresent what was explained.

 

[Dave G]

So because you do not want to agree, that gives you the right to mistepresent what was explained.

I don't believe that I have misrepresented anything...
All I did was explain how I understood it, and underlined what I agreed with in your explanation.

We can agree to disagree, can we not?

 

[37818]

Respectfully and because I disagree, I represent it the way that I do,
and recognize that you can represent it the way that you do, and we can agree to disagree.

Our disagreement does not change what is actually true. And that does not show why or how my understanding is wrong. Given those three sets of words are the subject in the Greek. Ephesians 2:8.

 

[Reformed1689]

In the Greek "saved" is the subject, not the, "through faith."

It is the whole clause that is the antecedant.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

In the Greek "saved" is the subject, not the, "through faith."

On a point of fact, "saved" is the verb. "You" is the subject and "through faith" is a prepositional phrase. It is also the nearest antecedent to "and that not of yourselves." @Reformed1689 may be right that the whole clause is the antecedent, but to try to say, "By grace are you saved and that not of yourselves" and to pretend that "through faith" is not there, is, as I pointed out before, a tautology.

 

[Dave G]

@SavedByGrace :

Another question if I may:
If repentance and faith are required from us by God before He can save a person, then why do the Scriptures say that both are granted, or given, by God?

1) " For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;" ( Philippians 1:29 ).
Here I see that, to the believers at Philippi, it was given to them, in the behalf of Christ, to believe on Him.
So, anything that is given, by God, is a gift...is it not?

2) " Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him." ( Acts of the Apostles 5:31-32 ).
Here I see that God has exalted Jesus Christ a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and the forgiveness of sins...
As well as the Holy Ghost being given to them that obey Him.

Again, anything that is given is a gift, is it not?

3) " When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life." ( Acts of the Apostles 11:18 ).
Repentance being granted, or given, by God.

So, given the above and what is stated in His word, how can we be required to furnish things that are gifts from God before He can save us?

As I've said in other places, my friend, I see election ( God's choice of the sinner ) being first ( as found in places like Psalms 65:4 )... and His gifts being given to those that He has had uninfluenced mercy and compassion on.
To me, that is what His grace is...

Not of our works in case any man should boast.

 

[Silverhair]

Mounce is not correct at this point. In Greek, the neuter demonstrative (touto) by no means always corresponds in gender with the antecedent. Both charis, 'grace' and pistis, 'faith' are feminine, so touto does not agree in gender with either of them. Touto does not refer to faith precisely, but to the fact of our exercising faith. If Paul was saying, 'by grace you have been saved, and that being saved is not of yourselves,' it would have been a tautology: Grace is never of ourselves; it is always of God. He might possibly have meant that the whole thing, grace and faith, are the gift of God, but that will not help @Silverhair. Pistis is the nearest antecedent and therefore is the most likely candidate.

There is a massive amount of literature on this subject. If anyone has time to waste, grab two or three commentaries and away you go.

Did not realize that you were a Greek scholar. You really don't like to just trust scripture do you.

People have only the freedom to choose what is offered to them of that which is of the world. They have no innate freedom beyond that.

Only believers who are still in this physical abode have the freedom to choose that which is Godly and that which is of the world. Once in the glorified state when one crosses over they again are only offered what is Godly.

In essence, there is no true “freedom of the will.”

As a “new creature created in Christ” that includes a new will that wars (as Paul had to also contend) against the old nature (will).

Freedom of choice does not extend to God opening the ears to the Word that faith comes.

Again, humans have no such capacity to open their own ears (understanding) to that which pertains to the Spiritual, for it is foolishness to them. (Paraphrasing Paul)

So if only believers have the freedom to make a choice then that would mean that all those that are condemned to hell are there not by their choice. Remember no freedom to choose.

I am surprised that you say >>Freedom of choice does not extend to God opening the ears to the Word that faith comes.<< So are you saying that God cannot open or will not open a sinners ears to the gospel message? If that is what you mean then how is anyone saved?

>>Again, humans have no such capacity to open their own ears (understanding) to that which pertains to the Spiritual, for it is foolishness to them.<< I agree man cannot do that but that is why we have the Holy Spirit.

Remember Joh 16:8-9 And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: of sin, because they do not believe in Me;... Now we have two options here

1] only those that are of the so called elect can be convicted or

2] everyone can be convicted.

If it is 1] then God has made it so that those that He has condemned to hell will not be able to be convicted of their sin and turn in faith to Christ Jesus.

If it is 2] then those that are condemned to hell are so because they exercised their God given free will and rejected salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.

Now I am not sure where you stand on this but for me I will take option two. Man has the God given free will to accept or reject Christ Jesus as savior.

 

[Silverhair]

The entire antecedent is the whole phrase grace....through faith. The whole phrase, not bits and pieces.

So you still want to argue that everyone except you is wrong. Here are a few that would you might want to listen to.

It is by grace you have been saved, and adding that the means of this salvation is through faith. Hence the basis is grace and the means is faith alone (cf. Rom_3:22, Rom_3:25; Gal_2:16; 1Pe_1:5). Faith is not a “work.” It does not merit salvation; it is only the means by which one accepts God’s free salvation. BKC

For by grace are ye saved - By mere favor. It is not by your Own merit; it is not because you have any claim. This is a favorite doctrine with Paul, as it is with all who love the Lord Jesus in sincerity
Through faith - Grace bestowed through faith, or in connection with believing Barnes


For by grace, etc.
This may truly be called exceeding riches of grace, for ye are saved by grace. Grace has the article, the grace of God, in Eph_2:5, Eph_2:7.
And that
Not faith, but the salvation.
Of God
Emphatic. Of God is it the gift. VWS

Eph_2:8. For by grace, etc. The Apostle now reverts to the means by which deliverance has been wrought, repeating the clause introduced parenthetically in Eph_2:5. Here, however, the article is used with ‘grace,’ pointing to God’s grace, already defined in Eph_2:7.
Are, or, ‘have been,’ saved. ‘Ye have been saved, and ye are now in a state of salvation.’
Through faith. This is not the emphatic phrase, but adds the subjective means, as so often in Paul’s writings. ‘Salvation by grace is not arbitrarily attached to faith by the mere sovereign dictate of the Most High, for man’s willing acceptance of salvation is essential to his possession of it’ Schaff

 

[agedman]

…
So if only believers have the freedom to make a choice then that would mean that all those that are condemned to hell are there not by their choice. Remember no freedom to choose.

I am surprised that you say >>Freedom of choice does not extend to God opening the ears to the Word that faith comes.<< So are you saying that God cannot open or will not open a sinners ears to the gospel message? If that is what you mean then how is anyone saved?

No, I am posting that human “freedom of the will” does not impress God to opening a person’s ears. “The heart of man is desperately wicked.” Salvation does not come by the will of man.

Humans may make a god and then worship their creation, but God does not conform to humans nor human concepts rather He knows thoughts prior to the thinking and as the great potter makes of the clay that which He desires.

Remember Joh 16:8-9 And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: of sin, because they do not believe in Me;... Now we have two options here

1] only those that are of the so called elect can be convicted or

2] everyone can be convicted.

If it is 1] then God has made it so that those that He has condemned to hell will not be able to be convicted of their sin and turn in faith to Christ Jesus.

If it is 2] then those that are condemned to hell are so because they exercised their God given free will and rejected salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.

Now I am not sure where you stand on this but for me I will take option two. Man has the God given free will to accept or reject Christ Jesus as savior.

There is a third option.

Did you forget that all are condemned already? Conviction doesn’t automatically resolve to an offer of salvation. Rather, is also used to confirm the condemnation bound in right judgement. Pharaoh’s heart was already hard, and God confirmed the hardness hardening further. So the work of the Holy Spirit does often confirm of the righteousness and judgment of sinful already condemned.


There is a great picture of this in the Revelation.

God has rolled back the curtains of the heavens, humans can actually see into the very throne room of God. Do they turn in repentance and pleas of mercy?

Not at all, they run and hide, just as the first Adam and Eve.

Even when the Lord returns with the army of saints, human kind fight against the King of kings. They do not cry out for mercy, they do not cry out for salvation, they are confirmed in rebellion.

Humans have no innate will to submit to God, but desire to create a god that conforms to their desires.