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Real Soteriology 101

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Reformed1689

Reformed1689

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SavedByGrace said:
You can't admit that you have been proven wrong from the Greek. You have failed to give your evidence that the Greek supports you
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Last I checked nobody actually did any work in the Greek on this thread. I'm not at home with my stuff so I can't give the evidence you want right now.
 
agedman

agedman

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SavedByGrace said:
Forget his conclusion it is the Greek grammar that shows the reformed twist to the passage is completely wrong
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Did I dispute Mounce (or the writer drawing from Mounce) or did I show that he neglected his own conclusion?

The word “through” is at times placed along side faith.

Ultimately, faith is either innate in human and can attain by it’s own merrit the attention of God, or it is placed as a conduit to that human by God’s Word as Romans states.

Ephesians does not give the specifics such is left to Romans. What Ephesians states is that salvation is by faith and is a gift from God.

Therefore, because God causes the opening of ears, causes the conduit of faith, salvation is then the gift of God.
 
Silverhair

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
agedman said:
I would not dare disagree with Mounce, except he ignored his own conclusion.

How does faith COME?

If faith does not “come” then there is no salvation, for there can be no Godly repentance and there is no working of the Holy Spirit.

“Faith comes by hearing…”.

Not all have ears to hear, for the Scripture teach:
5In the same way, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. 6And if it is by grace, then it is no longer by works. Otherwise, grace would no longer be grace.

7What then? What Israel was seeking, it failed to obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened, 8as it is written:

“God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that could not see,
and ears that could not hear, to this very day.”​
In the same manner, there are those who are as the Chaldeans who were raised to punish the Israeli because of the continued rejection of God’s Word.
We’re the Chaldeans redeemed, or were they a tool used by God to bring punishment?
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Funny you say >>I would not dare disagree with Mounce,<< then you go ahead and do it >>except he ignored his own conclusion.<<

You are right not all do respond and come to Christ Jesus. But that is what you get when people have a free will so as to make choices.
 
M

Martin Marprelate

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Silverhair said:
Salvation - the Gift from God Eph_2:8-9 By Dr. William Mounce
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Mounce is not correct at this point. In Greek, the neuter demonstrative (touto) by no means always corresponds in gender with the antecedent. Both charis, 'grace' and pistis, 'faith' are feminine, so touto does not agree in gender with either of them. Touto does not refer to faith precisely, but to the fact of our exercising faith. If Paul was saying, 'by grace you have been saved, and that being saved is not of yourselves,' it would have been a tautology: Grace is never of ourselves; it is always of God. He might possibly have meant that the whole thing, grace and faith, are the gift of God, but that will not help @Silverhair. Pistis is the nearest antecedent and therefore is the most likely candidate.

There is a massive amount of literature on this subject. If anyone has time to waste, grab two or three commentaries and away you go.
 
Silverhair

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
Reformed1689 said:
On the contrary, I agree 100% with the Scriptures, all of Scripture, not pieces taken out of context.
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It is just to bad you will not trust what scripture says but instead have to add your own meaning to the text. As long as the text agrees with your Calvinism then you agree with the text. Seems a bit backward don;t you think.
 
Reformed1689

Reformed1689

Well-Known Member
Martin Marprelate said:
Mounce is not correct at this point. In Greek, the neuter demonstrative (touto) by no means always corresponds in gender with the antecedent. Both charis, 'grace' and pistis, 'faith' are feminine, so touto does not agree in gender with either of them. Touto does not refer to faith precisely, but to the fact of our exercising faith. If Paul was saying, 'by grace you have been saved, and that being saved is not of yourselves,' it would have been a tautology: Grace is never of ourselves; it is always of God. He might possibly have meant that the whole thing, grace and faith, are the gift of God, but that will not help @Silverhair. Pistis is the nearest antecedent and therefore is the most likely candidate.

There is a massive amount of literature on this subject. If anyone has time to waste, grab two or three commentaries and away you go.
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Apparently some think Mounce is infallible.
 
agedman

agedman

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Silverhair said:
Funny you say >>I would not dare disagree with Mounce,<< then you go ahead and do it >>except he ignored his own conclusion.<<

You are right not all do respond and come to Christ Jesus. But that is what you get when people have a free will so as to make choices.
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People have only the freedom to choose what is offered to them of that which is of the world. They have no innate freedom beyond that.

Only believers who are still in this physical abode have the freedom to choose that which is Godly and that which is of the world. Once in the glorified state when one crosses over they again are only offered what is Godly.

In essence, there is no true “freedom of the will.”

As a “new creature created in Christ” that includes a new will that wars (as Paul had to also contend) against the old nature (will).

Freedom of choice does not extend to God opening the ears to the Word that faith comes.

Again, humans have no such capacity to open their own ears (understanding) to that which pertains to the Spiritual, for it is foolishness to them. (Paraphrasing Paul)
 
A

AustinC

Well-Known Member
SavedByGrace said:
What are you on about?
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A yes or no answer will suffice. You are intelligent, you know the question leaves you in a quandry.

"Did you believe in Jesus apart from the person and working of the Holy Spirit?"

Did God work in you before you repented or did you repent before God worked in you?
 
agedman

agedman

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Reformed1689 said:
Apparently some think Mounce is infallible.
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In my ancientness, I submit to the language scholarship of others over my own.

I am blessed by those of your far more current in your language work and am thankful for all insights you folks present.
 
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