Real Soteriology 101

[SavedByGrace]

A yes or no answer will suffice. You are intelligent, you know the question leaves you in a quandry.

"Did you believe in Jesus apart from the person and working of the Holy Spirit?"

Did God work in you before you repented or did you repent before God worked in you?

I have said this many times. I believe in the Holy Trinity. Three distinct but equal Persons. The Holy Spirit convicts the sinner of their sins before they call on the Lord for salvation. This is very clear in Acts chapter 2. The sinner then responds by repenting and believing only then are they saved

 

[SavedByGrace]

Mounce is not correct at this point. In Greek, the neuter demonstrative (touto) by no means always corresponds in gender with the antecedent. Both charis, 'grace' and pistis, 'faith' are feminine, so touto does not agree in gender with either of them. Touto does not refer to faith precisely, but to the fact of our exercising faith. If Paul was saying, 'by grace you have been saved, and that being saved is not of yourselves,' it would have been a tautology: Grace is never of ourselves; it is always of God. He might possibly have meant that the whole thing, grace and faith, are the gift of God, but that will not help @Silverhair. Pistis is the nearest antecedent and therefore is the most likely candidate.

There is a massive amount of literature on this subject. If anyone has time to waste, grab two or three commentaries and away you go.

Paul is here in this passage speaking of SALVATION, and not faith. SALVATION is the GIFT from God, and NOT merited by any good works that we may do. Only the reformed will twist this into something that is not there, as they do elsewhere! In Titus 3:5, Paul repeats this truth, "not by works of righteousness which we did ourselves, but according to his mercy, he saved us through the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit. Again, it is SALVATION that is not metited, and no mention of faith here! It is really very simple, when read as God intends that we do

 

[Dave G]

so God believes for us?

No, He doesn't.

 

[SavedByGrace]

No, He doesn't.

Does God repent for the sinner?

 

[Dave G]

Does God repent for the sinner?

No, He doesn't.
You don't understand, do you?

 

[agedman]

Edwards is not the person that I would go to for this, as he was a Calvinist and therefore cannot see rightly what the Bible actually says, without their obvious bias!

How is one not biased in using the statement you posted?

One can be just as biased against as for.

 

[SavedByGrace]

No, He doesn't.
You don't understand, do you?

Does repentance from sins take place before or after the sinner is saved

 

[Dave G]

@SavedByGrace :

God opens the heart so that men may believe His words ( Acts of the Apostles 16:14 ).
The reason that men believe is because He opened the heart.

He does this for Christ's sheep, God's elect, given to Christ by His Father before the foundation of the world ( Romans 8:29-30, Romans 9:13-24, Ephesians 1:3-11, Ephesians 2:1-10, 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14, 2 Timothy 1:9, John 6:37-47, John 6:64-65, John 17:2, Psalms 65:4, etc ).

It is by His gracious gift of the new birth which opens the person's heart to His words and the truth of them, that He thereby grants them the ability to repent, once faced with the truth of those very words.
It is the new birth coupled with the truth of His words that convinces them to trust Christ.

It is all the work of the Holy Spirit in them, and is known as "calling", or being "called".

Does repentance from sins take place before or after the sinner is saved

Since the Lord's decision to save someone was before the foundation of the world ( Ephesians 1:4-5 ), then I believe that repentance takes place after they are saved.
Salvation and "point of conversion" or "point of belief and indwelling of the Spirit" are not the same thing, as I see the Bible teaching.

To me, God saved someone before the foundation of the world.
That is when the decision was made, and that is when He decided to make them a vessel of mercy, afore prepared unto glory ( Romans 9:22-24 ).
At some point in their lives, they come to the knowledge of their Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ...many people consider this the point at which someone is saved, but for some reason I do not.

They then grow in the knowledge of Him through His word, and they also grow in grace.

However, I also see that they are saved then, as well as in this life, and then at the Judgement.
It's sort of a threefold salvation...
Saved in the past, saved in the present, and will be saved in the future.

 

[SavedByGrace]

​

How is one not biased in using the statement you posted?

One can be just as biased against as for.

Edwards is the man who wrote that strange tract about sinners in the hands of an angry God.

 

[SavedByGrace]

@SavedByGrace :

God opens the heart so that men may believe His words ( Acts of the Apostles 16:14 ).
The reason that men believe is because He opened the heart.

He does this for Christ's sheep, God's elect, given to Christ by His Father before the foundation of the world ( Romans 8:29-30, Romans 9:13-24, Ephesians 1:3-11, Ephesians 2:1-10, 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14, 2 Timothy 1:9, John 6:37-47, John 6:64-65, John 17:2, Psalms 65:4, etc ).

It is by His gracious gift of the new birth which opens the person's heart to His words and the truth of them, that He thereby grants them the ability to repent, once faced with the truth of those very words.
It is the new birth coupled with the truth of His words that convinces them to trust Christ.

It is all the work of the Holy Spirit in them, and is known as "calling", or being "called".

Since the Lord's decision to save someone was before the foundation of the world ( Ephesians 1:4-5 ), then repentance takes place after they are saved.

Why will the lost end up in hell?

 

[Dave G]

Why will the lost end up in hell?

For several reasons:

1) They hate God ( Romans 1:30-32, John 3:19-20, John 15:18, ).
2) God hates them ( Psalms 5:5-6, Psalms 11:5 ).
3) God is going to judge them for their sins through His Son, while Christ paid for the sins of those that He has saved and they will stand on His right hand in the judgement.


If you like, we can go over the Scriptures again that show all of this, my friend.

 

[AustinC]

I have said this many times. I believe in the Holy Trinity. Three distinct but equal Persons. The Holy Spirit convicts the sinner of their sins before they call on the Lord for salvation. This is very clear in Acts chapter 2. The sinner then responds by repenting and believing only then are they saved

Thank you. That is what those, whom people on this board call Calvinists, believe as well. That work of the Spirit is what Paul tells us in Ephesians 2:4-5 is having "been made alive with Christ." This person responds by repenting and believing.
Cause = Holy Spirit quickening
Effect = Sinner repenting and believing

Can we both agree?

 

[SavedByGrace]

Thank you. That is what those, whom people on this board call Calvinists, believe as well. That work of the Spirit is what Paul tells us in Ephesians 2:4-5 is having "been made alive with Christ." This person responds by repenting and believing.
Cause = Holy Spirit quickening
Effect = Sinner repenting and believing

Can we both agree?

Ephesians 2:1-10. What Does Paul Say?

 

[AustinC]

Ephesians 2:1-10. What Does Paul Say?

Ephesians 2:1-10 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

I quoted the passage for all of us to once again see.
Cause = Holy Spirit quickening
Effect = Humans repenting and believing

 

[Dave G]

Paul is talking about SALVATION in Ephesians 2:8-9, that this is a GIFT from God, and cannot be earned by our "good works".

To me, Paul is revealing that the Ephesians believers, as well as all believers, are saved by grace...
through faith, which is the gift of God.

That gift is not "of" works, lest any man should boast.

" But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
6 and hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus:
7 that in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in [his] kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
9 not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." ( Ephesians 2:4-10 ).

In English rules of grammar and according to sentence structure, I see that the nearest antecedent noun to the pronoun "that" in verse 8, is the noun "faith".
Therefore, the way I understand the passage is that the gift of God is "faith", since "saved" is a past-tense verb and has nothing to do with the pronoun "that".
In other words, "grace" is the first noun, "saved" is a verb, and "faith" is the next noun.
The antecedent noun to "that" in "...and that not of yourselves" is "faith", not "grace".

So, according to the way that I understand English, "saved by grace" cannot be the gift, since "faith" is described by "that", and "the gift of God" points back to "that not of youselves".
Please check my English to see if I'm in error or not.

 

[SavedByGrace]

Ephesians 2:1-10 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

I quoted the passage for all of us to once again see.
Cause = Holy Spirit quickening
Effect = Humans repenting and believing

You have ignored what I have written

 

[Dave G]

You have ignored what I have written

Respectfully ( and not to answer for AustinC on this ),
I carefully read it the first time that you wrote it, and I disagreed with it then.

As I see it, the "King James Bible" does a fine job translating it into the English of its day,
even though many of those words are no longer being used in modern English.
While I agree with you that "hath he quickened" is in italics and not part of the text, I disagreed with much ( but not all ) of the rest.

Also, to me, Paul tells the believer quite a bit in that passage, including the fact that they are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works.
That God loved them, even when they were dead in their trespasses and sins...which means to me that it was before He caused them to be born again and before they believed on His Son.

Did you miss what he told them in chapter 1, about being chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world, predestinated to their adoption of children, and predestinated to obtaining their inheritance in Ephesians 1:1-11?

 

[37818]

In English rules of grammar and according to sentence structure, I see that the nearest antecedent noun to the pronoun "that" in verse 8, is the noun "faith".

What little I understand of Greek grammar the subject in Ephesians 2:8 are in three sets of words, "saved," "that," and "the gift.". The "that" refers to "the gift" which refers to "saved."

 

[AustinC]

You have ignored what I have written

You mean that I didn't go back to the previous thread, copy your text here and then respond to it? You are correct. I don't care about your opinion from another thread. If you thought it important, then requote it here. What I find important is the actual text of scripture, which I quoted and highlighted. Do you disagree with the scripture? I have not ignored the Bible at all.
Be mad at me if you wish, but the Bible is important in this conversation. God seems to be pretty straightforward in Ephesians 2:1-10.

 

[Dave G]

Paul is talking about SALVATION in Ephesians 2:8-9, that this is a GIFT from God, and cannot be earned by our "good works".

Not to repeat myself from other threads, SBG, but if you see that salvation cannot be earned,
then why do you tell people that their belief and repentance leads to their salvation, instead of those things being evidences of it?