Real Soteriology 101

[Revmitchell]

Having to “do” something in general is not relevant to meriting salvation. It’s a poor argument

 

[Reformed1689]

Hey it is you who is trying to teach me Greek grammar. If you can't give your own response from the Greek then just say so. I can tell you 100% that the Greek does not support your theory

So now you are disagreeing with God. Scripture was given to us so that we can know of Christ Jesus and believe and thus have life in Him.
Joh 20:31 but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name.

On the contrary, I agree 100% with the Scriptures, all of Scripture, not pieces taken out of context.

 

[Reformed1689]

Perhaps these comments will help clear up your confusion.

Salvation - the Gift from God Eph_2:8-9 By Dr. William Mounce

For centuries, Bible commentators have differed on the precise reference of the pronoun “that” in Eph_2:8. Does “that” (touto G5124) refer to faith, as many have stated (e.g., Augustine, Chrysostom, Westcott, Lenski, etc.), or, does “that” refer to salvation from sin? Is faith “the gift of God,” or is this gift salvation by grace through faith?

Admittedly, from a cursory reading of Eph_2:8, it may appear that the relative pronoun that has faith as its grammatical antecedent. Those who believe that faith is a gift (i.e., miraculous imposition) from God, often point out that in this verse “faith” is the nearest antecedent of “that” (“For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God”). However, when one examines Eph_2:8 in the language in which it was written originally (Greek), he finds that the pronoun that G5124 (touto) is neuter in gender, while the word faith G4102 (pistis) is feminine. Since the general rule in Greek grammar is for the gender and number of a relative pronoun to be the same as its antecedent {Mounce, 1993, p. 111}, then some extenuating linguistic circumstance, special idiomatic use, or other mitigating factor would need to be demonstrated to justify linking “that” to “faith.” If such reasonable justification cannot be made, then one is compelled to continue studying the passage in order to know assuredly what “that” gift of God is.

https://www.apologeticspress.org/apcontent.aspx?category=6&article=1246



The overall context of the first three chapters of Ephesians is man’s salvation found in Christ.

• “In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace” (Eph_1:7).
  
  
• The heavenly “inheritance” is found in Christ (Eph_1:11).
  
  
• After believing in the good news of salvation through Christ, the Ephesians were “sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise” (Eph_1:13).
  
  
• Sinners are made “alive with Christ” and saved “by grace” (Eph_2:5).
  
  
• Sinners are brought near to God “by the blood of Christ” (Eph_2:13).
  
  
• Paul became a servant of Christ “according to the gift of the grace of God…by the effective working of His power” (Eph_3:7).

Not only is the theme of salvation the overall context of the first three chapters of Ephesians, but the immediate context of Eph_2:8-9 is of salvation, not of faith. Paul is talking about HOW A PERSON IS SAVED. The main idea of the sentence is found in the verb phrase "you have been saved" G4982. How is a person saved? Eph_2:8-9 answers this key question.

The entire antecedent is the whole phrase grace....through faith. The whole phrase, not bits and pieces.

 

[Van]

And, of course, this statement is 100% false.

Not through faith? Not your faith? Not chosen through faith in the truth. More than 4 dozen right there.

 

[Reformed1689]

Repentance is what a sinner DOES before they can be saved.

Reread your Bible

Are you sure? Did the thief on the cross repent?

 

[Reformed1689]

Not through faith? Not your faith? Not chosen through faith in the truth. More than 4 dozen right there.

Nope, just Van spouting off absurdities as usual.

 

[Van]

I'm starting to think you don't understand basic English because you always twist everything I say into something I did not even come close to saying.

Anytime a poster addresses the character and qualifications of a poster rather than the topic, he or she is declaring themselves to have lost on the facts.

 

[Van]

Nope, just Van spouting off absurdities as usual.

Taint so

 

[SavedByGrace]

The entire antecedent is the whole phrase grace....through faith. The whole phrase, not bits and pieces.[/QUOTE

PLEASE stop making silly comments on the Greek grammar of this passage in Ephesians 2, when you have been told that you are WRONG. you show your acute lack of real knowledge of Greek

 

[SavedByGrace]

Are you sure? Did the thief on the cross repent?

Yes!

He said that he and his fellow thief were receiving their just punishment for their crimes, whereas Jesus is sinless and being wrongly punished.

You should very carefully read what the Bible actually says

 

[SavedByGrace]

Are you sure? Did the thief on the cross repent?

One of the criminals who were hanged railed at him, saying, “Are you not the Christ? Save yourself and us!” But the other rebuked him, saying, “Do you not fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? And we indeed justly, for we are receiving the due reward of our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong.” And he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.” And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”
Luke 23:39-43

 

[Yeshua1]

One of the criminals who were hanged railed at him, saying, “Are you not the Christ? Save yourself and us!” But the other rebuked him, saying, “Do you not fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? And we indeed justly, for we are receiving the due reward of our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong.” And he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.” And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”
Luke 23:39-43

The Holy Spirit was at work right there, as he enabled a lost sinner to see the light and get saved!

 

[SavedByGrace]

The Holy Spirit was at work right there, as he enabled a lost sinner to see the light and get saved!

The thief REPENTED and BELIEVED as Jesus says in Mark 1.15

 

[Reformed1689]

Yes!

He said that he and his fellow thief were receiving their just punishment for their crimes, whereas Jesus is sinless and being wrongly punished.

You should very carefully read what the Bible actually says

Is that actual repentence? Or just accepting the penalty.

 

[Reformed1689]

Told that I am wrong yet Theologians disagree with you and say I am right. Guess you can't listen when you are told you are wrong.

 

[SavedByGrace]

Is that actual repentence? Or just accepting the penalty.

Jesus forgave him. So his repentance was genuine. Just accept what the Bible actually says for once and quit imposing your theology on the Bible

 

[agedman]

Perhaps these comments will help clear up your confusion.

Salvation - the Gift from God Eph_2:8-9 By Dr. William Mounce

For centuries, Bible commentators have differed on the precise reference of the pronoun “that” in Eph_2:8. Does “that” (touto G5124) refer to faith, as many have stated (e.g., Augustine, Chrysostom, Westcott, Lenski, etc.), or, does “that” refer to salvation from sin? Is faith “the gift of God,” or is this gift salvation by grace through faith?

Admittedly, from a cursory reading of Eph_2:8, it may appear that the relative pronoun that has faith as its grammatical antecedent. Those who believe that faith is a gift (i.e., miraculous imposition) from God, often point out that in this verse “faith” is the nearest antecedent of “that” (“For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God”). However, when one examines Eph_2:8 in the language in which it was written originally (Greek), he finds that the pronoun that G5124 (touto) is neuter in gender, while the word faith G4102 (pistis) is feminine. Since the general rule in Greek grammar is for the gender and number of a relative pronoun to be the same as its antecedent {Mounce, 1993, p. 111}, then some extenuating linguistic circumstance, special idiomatic use, or other mitigating factor would need to be demonstrated to justify linking “that” to “faith.” If such reasonable justification cannot be made, then one is compelled to continue studying the passage in order to know assuredly what “that” gift of God is.

https://www.apologeticspress.org/apcontent.aspx?category=6&article=1246



The overall context of the first three chapters of Ephesians is man’s salvation found in Christ.

• “In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace” (Eph_1:7).
  
  
• The heavenly “inheritance” is found in Christ (Eph_1:11).
  
  
• After believing in the good news of salvation through Christ, the Ephesians were “sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise” (Eph_1:13).
  
  
• Sinners are made “alive with Christ” and saved “by grace” (Eph_2:5).
  
  
• Sinners are brought near to God “by the blood of Christ” (Eph_2:13).
  
  
• Paul became a servant of Christ “according to the gift of the grace of God…by the effective working of His power” (Eph_3:7).

Not only is the theme of salvation the overall context of the first three chapters of Ephesians, but the immediate context of Eph_2:8-9 is of salvation, not of faith. Paul is talking about HOW A PERSON IS SAVED. The main idea of the sentence is found in the verb phrase "you have been saved" G4982. How is a person saved? Eph_2:8-9 answers this key question.

I would not dare disagree with Mounce, except he ignored his own conclusion.

How does faith COME?

If faith does not “come” then there is no salvation, for there can be no Godly repentance and there is no working of the Holy Spirit.

“Faith comes by hearing…”.

Not all have ears to hear, for the Scripture teach:

5In the same way, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. 6And if it is by grace, then it is no longer by works. Otherwise, grace would no longer be grace.

7What then? What Israel was seeking, it failed to obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened, 8as it is written:

“God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that could not see,
and ears that could not hear, to this very day.”​

In the same manner, there are those who are as the Chaldeans who were raised to punish the Israeli because of the continued rejection of God’s Word.
We’re the Chaldeans redeemed, or were they a tool used by God to bring punishment?

 

[Yeshua1]

The thief REPENTED and BELIEVED as Jesus says in Mark 1.15

Yes, as enabled to by the Holy Spirit!

 

[SavedByGrace]

Told that I am wrong yet Theologians disagree with you and say I am right. Guess you can't listen when you are told you are wrong.

You can't admit that you have been proven wrong from the Greek. You have failed to give your evidence that the Greek supports you

 

[SavedByGrace]

I would not dare disagree with Mounce, except he ignored his own conclusion.

How does faith COME?

If faith does not “come” then there is no salvation, for there can be no Godly repentance and there is no working of the Holy Spirit.

“Faith comes by hearing…”.

Not all have ears to hear, for the Scripture teach:

5In the same way, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. 6And if it is by grace, then it is no longer by works. Otherwise, grace would no longer be grace. 7What then? What Israel was seeking, it failed to obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened, 8as it is written:

“God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that could not see,
and ears that could not hear, to this very day.”​

In the same manner, there are those who are as the Chaldeans who were raised to punish the Israeli because of the continued rejection of God’s Word.
We’re the Chaldeans redeemed, or were they a tool used by God to bring punishment?

Forget his conclusion it is the Greek grammar that shows the reformed twist to the passage is completely wrong