Real Soteriology 101

[Reformed1689]

@Reformed1689 :

"Real Soteriology 10-anything" is God's grace through Jesus Christ.... plus nothing.
Not even faith.

For the Lord to base His decision to save anyone on anything outside of Himself and His gifts, would be to rely on the efforts of men to gain His favor.
This would make His holy work of salvation, which no man can boast of, into something that we can ( even potentially ) boast in or take credit for...

and would also make it into works per Romans 11:5-6.

To use an analogy, adding just one condition to the Lord's perfect work of grace would be like taking a 5 gallon bucket of pure and refreshing spring water...
and introducing one tiny drop of raw sewage ( with all of it's parasites, bacteria and other nasty corruption ), to it.

That would absolutely ruin it, even if the contamination could not be seen.

If the faith is given by God it is still solely of God. And that is what Scripture states.

 

[Reformed1689]

LOL, now my faith is not mine but God's. So never mention that difference and refer to my faith but actually mean not my faith. God it...

Not to mention the problem that if God's faith is instilled, it would already be righteous. So all those verses where God credits faith as righteousness are for the purpose of misdirection, God credits God's faith as righteous so we would mistakenly think He is accepting our faith. God it again. Man ain't Calvinism wonderful...

Well seeing as how we cannot be righteous on our own, that is exactly what it says. God declares us righteous based on HIS merit, based on HIS grace. It is nothing we do Van.

 

[Reformed1689]

More personal insult. Through faith means that faith is the reason for the action or more specifically faith as credited by God as righteousness is the means by which individuals obtain the blessing by God in view in the verse. Ephesians 2:8, saved by grace is the action, and the means by which the individual obtained the blessing is our faith as credited by God. See Romans 5:2.

I did not insult you. You need to do some study in that lexicon again. You ignored completely the primary definition of the words in question. It is not by reason of.

 

[Silverhair]

In Soteriology 102

@Van claims that "through faith" in Ephesians 2:8 somehow means by reason of faith without providing any exegetical evidence. This is false. It is also false that Calvinists reject saved through faith. We embrace it fully. But we don't ignore the whole clause of the verse.

It is By grace...through faith. It is all one clause. One package. It is not two separate things. By grace through faith is the gift of God. Not just grace.

Grace is not God's part while faith is ours. No, that would be a salvation of works. Grace and Faith are both of God. Period.

God is the only one who saves. Christ is the author and finisher of our faith. It is given by Him to those He has chosen to save.

Just a couple of notes for you to look at.

Joh 6:29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent."

For by grace (tēi gar chariti). Explanatory reason. “By the grace” already mentioned in Eph_2:5 and so with the article.
Through faith (dia pisteōs). This phrase he adds in repeating what he said in Eph_2:5 to make it plainer. “Grace” is God’s part, “faith” ours.
And that (kai touto). Neuter, not feminine tautē, and so refers not to pistis {faith} (feminine) or to charis {grace} (feminine also), but to the act of being saved by grace conditioned on faith on our part. Paul shows that salvation does not have its source (ex humōn, out of you) in men, but from God. Besides, it is God’s gift (dōron) and not the result of our work. RWP


God expects us to exercise faith as we see in Joh 6:29 so we can see that when it says "through faith" in Eph 2:8 we are just fulfilling the condition that God has put in place. God does not give us faith He expects us to have it.

 

[Silverhair]

@Reformed1689 :

"Real Soteriology 10-anything" is God's grace through Jesus Christ.... plus nothing.
Not even faith.

For the Lord to base His decision to save anyone on anything outside of Himself and His gifts, would be to rely on the efforts of men to gain His favor.
This would make His holy work of salvation, which no man can boast of, into something that we can ( even potentially ) boast in or take credit for...

and would also make it into works per Romans 11:5-6.

To use an analogy, adding just one condition to the Lord's perfect work of grace would be like taking a 5 gallon bucket of pure and refreshing spring water...
and introducing one tiny drop of raw sewage ( with all of it's parasites, bacteria and other nasty corruption ), to it.

That would absolutely ruin it, even if the contamination could not be seen.

Strange how God expects us to do something in regard to our salvation.
Joh 6:29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent."

 

[Silverhair]

That's not true though. Nor is that what through faith means. That is evidenced by the very lexicon you posted in the other thread. It can mean that, but there is no evidence it means that in this case whatsoever.

So where is your evidence that it does not mean that at any time. Or that it does not means that in this case.
Lets look at the Greek used here:
through διὰ faith, πίστεως·
διὰ (a) genitive: through, throughout, by the instrumentality of,
(b) accusative: through, on account of, by reason of, for the sake of, because of.
πίστεως Faith, belief, trust, confidence; fidelity, faithfulness.

 

[SavedByGrace]

In Soteriology 102

@Van claims that "through faith" in Ephesians 2:8 somehow means by reason of faith without providing any exegetical evidence. This is false. It is also false that Calvinists reject saved through faith. We embrace it fully. But we don't ignore the whole clause of the verse.

It is By grace...through faith. It is all one clause. One package. It is not two separate things. By grace through faith is the gift of God. Not just grace.

Grace is not God's part while faith is ours. No, that would be a salvation of works. Grace and Faith are both of God. Period.

God is the only one who saves. Christ is the author and finisher of our faith. It is given by Him to those He has chosen to save.

Yet another misrepresenting of what the Bible actually says!

Paul is talking about SALVATION in Ephesians 2:8-9, that this is a GIFT from God, and cannot be earned by our "good works". The GIFT here is NOT "faith", but "salvation", but the reformed will try to distort this as they do with "world" in John 3:16, and many other Bible passages.

The Bible is also very clear that FAITH comes from HEARING the Word of God, when the Gospel Message is faithfully preached, as is seen in Romans chapter 10.

 

[SavedByGrace]

So where is your evidence that it does not mean that at any time. Or that it does not means that in this case.
Lets look at the Greek used here:
through διὰ faith, πίστεως·
διὰ (a) genitive: through, throughout, by the instrumentality of,
(b) accusative: through, on account of, by reason of, for the sake of, because of.
πίστεως Faith, belief, trust, confidence; fidelity, faithfulness.

and WHAT exactly have you proven from just giving the use of this Greek preposition?

 

[SavedByGrace]

Strange how God expects us to do something in regard to our salvation.
Joh 6:29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent."

Have you not read Acts 2:37? after Peter preached the Gospel, those who heard him were "cut to the heart". What was their response? "What must we DO", to which Peter did not say, "DO nothing", because God has done the believing for you, which is the idiotic way that the "reformed" tell us. Peter clearly says, "REPENT...FOR THE FORGIVENESS OF YOUR SINS" (verse 38). This REPENTING is what these sinners had to DO.

 

[SavedByGrace]

@Reformed1689 :

"Real Soteriology 10-anything" is God's grace through Jesus Christ.... plus nothing.
Not even faith.

For the Lord to base His decision to save anyone on anything outside of Himself and His gifts, would be to rely on the efforts of men to gain His favor.
This would make His holy work of salvation, which no man can boast of, into something that we can ( even potentially ) boast in or take credit for...

and would also make it into works per Romans 11:5-6.

To use an analogy, adding just one condition to the Lord's perfect work of grace would be like taking a 5 gallon bucket of pure and refreshing spring water...
and introducing one tiny drop of raw sewage ( with all of it's parasites, bacteria and other nasty corruption ), to it.

That would absolutely ruin it, even if the contamination could not be seen.

so God believes for us? You guys talk a load of rubbish!

 

[RipponRedeaux]

Philippians 1:29
For It has been granted to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe in him, but also to suffer for him.

So saving belief is the gift of God, as we already know from Ephesians 2:8, but the verse above also emphasizes this truth.

Ephesians 2:5
even though we were dead in transgressions, made us alive together with Christ --by grace you are saved!

Christ made us alive when formerly we were dead spiritually speaking need I add. Obviously it's not speaking of our physical bodies.

In 2 Corinthians 4:6 it says For God, who said "Let light shine out of darkness made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of God's glory displayed in the face of Christ.

Conversion to Christ is as much of a miracle as the sudden creation of light from darkness on the first day of creation.

In 2 Timothy 2:25 it says if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth.

So faith and repentance are God's work --God's activity. We are told to repent and believe. And we must, but when that happens it will occur because God has willed it.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

How were we chosen through faith in the truth (2 Thessalonians 2:13) if we were chosen individually for salvation unconditionally?

Yet another nonsense post. Is the fact salvation is all of the Lord and not one bit of man at issue? Nope
Does the post address the question? Nope

Yet another nonsense post. Does Van claim that spiritually dead people can seek and find Christ for themselves? Yep!

 

[Lodic]

I especially like the illustration from the resurrection of Lazarus. There was nothing he could do to come back to life. Jesus had to call him, and Lazarus could not resist His call.

 

[DaveXR650]

so God believes for us? You guys talk a load of rubbish!

No. God does not believe for us. I think that faith is a gift from God but I think "faith is the soul's active uniting with Christ, or is itself the very act of unition on their part". "On their part" is emphasized in the original quotation which is from Jonathan Edwards. He is referring to the part of the individual being saved. Edwards says that for two intelligent beings to have an interaction there has to be something involved on the part of both parties. I've never heard anyone argue that Edwards was not a Calvinist.

Salvation is all of God if you mean that we are in a state by nature where we would never be inclined to come to God and if we did we would not have to right to. In that sense God does everything. But faith really is something done "on our part". I happen to think that in Ephesians 2:8-9 faith is included as part of the gift. But if you go to the point of saying God believes for us then you are going beyond what the Puritans, and what most of the classical Calvinists said and are misrepresenting them whether you are for or against them.

 

[Revmitchell]

I especially like the illustration from the resurrection of Lazarus. There was nothing he could do to come back to life. Jesus had to call him, and Lazarus could not resist His call.

except that is not an appropriate example. However, the prodigal son is

 

[Reformed1689]

Yet another misrepresenting of what the Bible actually says!

Paul is talking about SALVATION in Ephesians 2:8-9, that this is a GIFT from God, and cannot be earned by our "good works". The GIFT here is NOT "faith", but "salvation", but the reformed will try to distort this as they do with "world" in John 3:16, and many other Bible passages.

The Bible is also very clear that FAITH comes from HEARING the Word of God, when the Gospel Message is faithfully preached, as is seen in Romans chapter 10.

To say that the gift is not "grace through faith" is to ignore the grammatical construct of the passage.

 

[Reformed1689]

So where is your evidence that it does not mean that at any time. Or that it does not means that in this case.
Lets look at the Greek used here:
through διὰ faith, πίστεως·
διὰ (a) genitive: through, throughout, by the instrumentality of,
(b) accusative: through, on account of, by reason of, for the sake of, because of.
πίστεως Faith, belief, trust, confidence; fidelity, faithfulness.

I did not say that it does not mean that at any time. i said it is not the meaning in this context.

 

[Reformed1689]

Through faith (dia pisteōs). This phrase he adds in repeating what he said in Eph_2:5 to make it plainer. “Grace” is God’s part, “faith” ours.

That is a salvation of works and not what Scripture is saying at all.

 

[SavedByGrace]

To say that the gift is not "grace through faith" is to ignore the grammatical construct of the passage.

oh, really? go ahead, please show me from the Greek grammar where I am wrong? I wait...

 

[SavedByGrace]

No. God does not believe for us. I think that faith is a gift from God but I think "faith is the soul's active uniting with Christ, or is itself the very act of unition on their part". "On their part" is emphasized in the original quotation which is from Jonathan Edwards. He is referring to the part of the individual being saved. Edwards says that for two intelligent beings to have an interaction there has to be something involved on the part of both parties. I've never heard anyone argue that Edwards was not a Calvinist.

Salvation is all of God if you mean that we are in a state by nature where we would never be inclined to come to God and if we did we would not have to right to. In that sense God does everything. But faith really is something done "on our part". I happen to think that in Ephesians 2:8-9 faith is included as part of the gift. But if you go to the point of saying God believes for us then you are going beyond what the Puritans, and what most of the classical Calvinists said and are misrepresenting them whether you are for or against them.

Edwards is not the person that I would go to for this, as he was a Calvinist and therefore cannot see rightly what the Bible actually says, without their obvious bias!