Real Soteriology 101

[Reformed1689]

So you still want to argue that everyone except you is wrong.

Well since I am by far not the only one who holds to this... lol

 

[SavedByGrace]

Well since I am by far not the only one who holds to this... lol

indeed, you and other like-mided "reformed", who are very much in the MINORITY in Christianity! Thank the Good Lord!!!

 

[37818]

@SavedByGrace :

Another question if I may:
If repentance and faith are required from us by God before He can save a person, then why do the Scriptures say that both are granted, or given, by God?

1) " For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;" ( Philippians 1:29 ).
Here I see that, to the believers at Philippi, it was given to them, in the behalf of Christ, to believe on Him.
So, anything that is given, by God, is a gift...is it not?

2) " Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him." ( Acts of the Apostles 5:31-32 ).
Here I see that God has exalted Jesus Christ a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and the forgiveness of sins...
As well as the Holy Ghost being given to them that obey Him.

Again, anything that is given is a gift, is it not?

3) " When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life." ( Acts of the Apostles 11:18 ).
Repentance being granted, or given, by God.

So, given the above and what is stated in His word, how can we be required to furnish things that are gifts from God before He can save us?

As I've said in other places, my friend, I see election ( God's choice of the sinner ) being first ( as found in places like Psalms 65:4 )... and His gifts being given to those that He has had uninfluenced mercy and compassion on.
To me, that is what His grace is...

Not of our works in case any man should boast.

Psalms 19:4.

 

[37818]

On a point of fact, "saved" is the verb. "You" is the subject and "through faith" is a prepositional phrase.

And "that" is a demonstrative pronoun. And "the gift" is a noun. In the Greek "saved," "that" and "the gift" are in the nominative case.

The Five Cases in the Greek Language

 

[SavedByGrace]

On a point of fact, "saved" is the verb. "You" is the subject and "through faith" is a prepositional phrase. It is also the nearest antecedent to "and that not of yourselves." @Reformed1689 may be right that the whole clause is the antecedent, but to try to say, "By grace are you saved and that not of yourselves" and to pretend that "through faith" is not there, is, as I pointed out before, a tautology.

Martin, you need a refresher on your Greek grammar!

 

[MB]

In Soteriology 102

@Van claims that "through faith" in Ephesians 2:8 somehow means by reason of faith without providing any exegetical evidence. This is false. It is also false that Calvinists reject saved through faith. We embrace it fully. But we don't ignore the whole clause of the verse.

You exaggerate greatly, The very words through faith certainly show faith must e present before Salvation can be had.
Through faith is the proof if you only understood the English language Which you do not. Ignorance is your biggest problem.

It is By grace...through faith. It is all one clause. One package. It is not two separate things. By grace through faith is the gift of God. Not just grace.

Now you turn around and agree. Grace and faith is not the Gift. Salvation is the gift
We already have faith we are given a measure in our creation

Grace is not God's part while faith is ours. No, that would be a salvation of works. Grace and Faith are both of God. Period.

Prove faith is a work. You ramble on and never prove anything you say.

God is the only one who saves. Christ is the author and finisher of our faith. It is given by Him to those He has chosen to save.

All of the trinity works together to convince man. For the most part we are saved by the blood of Christ.
MB

 

[Silverhair]

No, I am posting that human “freedom of the will” does not impress God to opening a person’s ears. “The heart of man is desperately wicked.” Salvation does not come by the will of man.

Humans may make a god and then worship their creation, but God does not conform to humans nor human concepts rather He knows thoughts prior to the thinking and as the great potter makes of the clay that which He desires.



There is a third option.

Did you forget that all are condemned already? Conviction doesn’t automatically resolve to an offer of salvation. Rather, is also used to confirm the condemnation bound in right judgement. Pharaoh’s heart was already hard, and God confirmed the hardness hardening further. So the work of the Holy Spirit does often confirm of the righteousness and judgment of sinful already condemned.


There is a great picture of this in the Revelation.

God has rolled back the curtains of the heavens, humans can actually see into the very throne room of God. Do they turn in repentance and pleas of mercy?

Not at all, they run and hide, just as the first Adam and Eve.

Even when the Lord returns with the army of saints, human kind fight against the King of kings. They do not cry out for mercy, they do not cry out for salvation, they are confirmed in rebellion.

Humans have no innate will to submit to God, but desire to create a god that conforms to their desires.

So are you saying that when God says we are to seek Him or when the Holy Spirit convicts man that even then man has no ability to turn to God. When He says in Rom 1:20 that man has no excuse for not knowing Him then He was being less than truthful? God expects man to do those things and will hold them responsible for their choices. If man, as you say, cannot then why are they held accountable? Does that sound like the God of the bible to you.

You use Pharaoh as an example of mans hardened heart, and Calvinists extend that to all men yet they never look at the times when God tells man to seek Him or that man says they will seek Him.
Note Deu 10:12-13 "And now, Israel, what does the LORD your God require of you, but to fear the LORD your God, to walk in all His ways and to love Him, to serve the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, and to keep the commandments of the LORD and His statutes which I command you today for your good?
The Jews had the Mosaic law which related to external observances, which if need be could be enforced. But here we see love and veneration which cannot be enforced, even by God himself. They must be spontaneous.They have to come from the will of man, they have to be done freely. If God expects that from the Jews then would He expect anything less from Gentiles. And furthermore if He expects it then man must be able to do it. Thus we see free will is indeed a God given ability.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Did not realize that you were a Greek scholar. You really don't like to just trust scripture do you.

Well I studied Greek for seven years, but I do not call myself a scholar. I consulted various commentaries and scholarly opinions before I made my post.

So if only believers have the freedom to make a choice then that would mean that all those that are condemned to hell are there not by their choice. Remember no freedom to choose.

Unsaved people have no ability to come to Christ, not because God prevents them but because of their wicked, unbelieving hearts (c.f. 1 Corinthians 2:14; Titus 3:3-5).

I am surprised that you say >>

Please do not pretend to quote me; quote my actual words. I don't recognize your mangling of what I said.

>>Again, humans have no such capacity to open their own ears (understanding) to that which pertains to the Spiritual, for it is foolishness to them.<< I agree man cannot do that but that is why we have the Holy Spirit.

Who has the Holy Spirit? Unbelievers? When? While they are still dead in trespasses? 'Unless one is born from above he cannot see the kingdom of God.'

Remember Joh 16:8-9 And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: of sin, because they do not believe in Me;... Now we have two options here

1] only those that are of the so called elect can be convicted or

2] everyone can be convicted.

If it is 1] then God has made it so that those that He has condemned to hell will not be able to be convicted of their sin and turn in faith to Christ Jesus.

If it is 2] then those that are condemned to hell are so because they exercised their God given free will and rejected salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.

Now I am not sure where you stand on this but for me I will take option two. Man has the God given free will to accept or reject Christ Jesus as Savior.

It is almost your option 2, but not quite. Men exercise their will freely to reject Christ and unless God does a special work of grace on a man's heart he will not repent and believe, not because he cannot but because he will not (John 3:19; 5:40). The inability is not constitutional but spiritual and moral. And God has, in His ineffable justice, decreed to do that work of grace to the hearts of a vast crowd of people, but not to the hearts of everyone (Romans 9:18).

 

[MB]

@Van
I have one question for you. I don't want any "taint so" or "calinism this" etc, just answer this question. If you are right, how come not one single translator translates the verse by grace are you saved by reason of faith? Nobody translates it that way. Not one single expert. Why? Please answer that question.

In your circle there wouldn't be any that confirm what scripture clearly says. By the way there are no Calvinistic experts because the wise become fools. The Bible was written for a simple people not the proud better than everyone else crowd you hang with.. Like the rest of religious experts they all believe they are the only ones who have the truth when they don't have it but they claim it so they will look intelligent You ignore words like "IN HIM" and then make out like they aren't even there or else making false claims about what they mean. When there meaning is crystal clear.

It literally pitiful the extents you go to to disprove scripture and what it says so that it will fit you false doctrine.
MB

 

[AustinC]

So are you saying that when God says we are to seek Him or when the Holy Spirit convicts man that even then man has no ability to turn to God. When He says in Rom 1:20 that man has no excuse for not knowing Him then He was being less than truthful? God expects man to do those things and will hold them responsible for their choices. If man, as you say, cannot then why are they held accountable? Does that sound like the God of the bible to you.

You use Pharaoh as an example of mans hardened heart, and Calvinists extend that to all men yet they never look at the times when God tells man to seek Him or that man says they will seek Him.
Note Deu 10:12-13 "And now, Israel, what does the LORD your God require of you, but to fear the LORD your God, to walk in all His ways and to love Him, to serve the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, and to keep the commandments of the LORD and His statutes which I command you today for your good?
The Jews had the Mosaic law which related to external observances, which if need be could be enforced. But here we see love and veneration which cannot be enforced, even by God himself. They must be spontaneous.They have to come from the will of man, they have to be done freely. If God expects that from the Jews then would He expect anything less from Gentiles. And furthermore if He expects it then man must be able to do it. Thus we see free will is indeed a God given ability.

Ephesians 2:4-5 answers you and stops your argument in its tracks.

But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—

No free will. No requirements. No human effort.

God made us alive, even when we were dead in our trespasses and sins.

I am so thankful God has been so clear on the issue. He has been so clear that you, with your desperate attempts to promote human works, cannot come up with a plausible alternative. You either accept what God tells you, or you continue with your contentious and rebellious ranting against God's Supremacy.

 

[agedman]

So are you saying that when God says we are to seek Him or when the Holy Spirit convicts man that even then man has no ability to turn to God. When He says in Rom 1:20 that man has no excuse for not knowing Him then He was being less than truthful? God expects man to do those things and will hold them responsible for their choices. If man, as you say, cannot then why are they held accountable? Does that sound like the God of the bible to you.

I point you to the same passage of Romans all in the past tense:

18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of people who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19becausethat which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, that is, His eternalpower and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, being understood by what hasbeen made, so that they are without excuse. 21For even though they knew God, they did not [o]honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their reasonings, and their senseless hearts were darkened. 22Claiming to be wise, they became fools,23and they exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible mankind, of birds, four-footed animals, and crawling creatures.

24Therefore God gave them up to vile impurity in the lusts of their hearts, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them. 25For they exchanged the truth of God for falsehood, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

28And just as they did not see fit [v]to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a depraved mind, to do those things that are not proper, 29people having been filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, and evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, andmalice; they are gossips, 30slanderers, [w]haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, 31without understanding, untrustworthy, unfeeling, and unmerciful; 32and although they know the ordinance of God, that thosewho practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but alsoapprove of those who practice them.​

And does not the Scripture also state, “…and such were some of you…”

Certainly, pre-Noah God expected and “winked/winched” at sin; however, Humankind, now that the law is written on the heart, stand “condemned already” and as such God has no obligation to do other then do as He told Moses and Paul quoted in Romans 9, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.”

This in no means makes God unfair, but rather displays His greater understanding of the human condition and the work of the Holy Spirit in bringing folks to redemption.

You use Pharaoh as an example of mans hardened heart, and Calvinists extend that to all men yet they never look at the times when God tells man to seek Him or that man says they will seek Him.
Note Deu 10:12-13 "And now, Israel, what does the LORD your God require of you, but to fear the LORD your God, to walk in all His ways and to love Him, to serve the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, and to keep the commandments of the LORD and His statutes which I command you today for your good?

Certainly, Deuteronomy is important to Israel as a command, and a principle for the believers to follow, for our Lord said, to keep His commandments, especially the two greatest.

How then did Israel follow this command? By duly fulfilling the Law and Temple rights.

Did they? At times, but more often were “stiff necked.” Not much different then believers in this modern age, yet God had his remnant then and He does now.

The Jews had the Mosaic law which related to external observances, which if need be could be enforced. But here we see love and veneration which cannot be enforced, even by God himself. They must be spontaneous.They have to come from the will of man, they have to be done freely. If God expects that from the Jews then would He expect anything less from Gentiles. And furthermore if He expects it then man must be able to do it. Thus we see free will is indeed a God given ability.

God rightly expected physical action from the Jews, but did He not say, “their hearts are far from me,” and in another place, “sacrifice and offerings I would not…”

I suggest that the Jews are a direct example of those who know the oracles of God, perform the oracles of God, yet have no heart unless God caused such change in individuals.

Throughout the OT God shows How He selects his remnants, even remarking to the prophet the number of them at one time.

I do not understand the working of the Spirit, for as Christ stated, He comes and goes, and humans don’t know from where to to where.

But God is faithful, and is not unfair to choose Isaac rather then Jacob, Rehab over the other Jericho folks, Ruth rather than an Israeli,….

God could just allow all to perish, but chooses for His purpose.

 

[Silverhair]

Well I studied Greek for seven years, but I do not call myself a scholar. I consulted various commentaries and scholarly opinions before I made my post.

Unsaved people have no ability to come to Christ, not because God prevents them but because of their wicked, unbelieving hearts (c.f. 1 Corinthians 2:14; Titus 3:3-5).


Please do not pretend to quote me; quote my actual words. I don't recognize your mangling of what I said.

Who has the Holy Spirit? Unbelievers? When? While they are still dead in trespasses? 'Unless one is born from above he cannot see the kingdom of God.'

It is almost your option 2, but not quite. Men exercise their will freely to reject Christ and unless God does a special work of grace on a man's heart he will not repent and believe, not because he cannot but because he will not (John 3:19; 5:40). The inability is not constitutional but spiritual and moral. And God has, in His ineffable justice, decreed to do that work of grace to the hearts of a vast crowd of people, but not to the hearts of everyone (Romans 9:18).

If you will note the post had both you and agedman included, not my intent but it happened. The quote that unset you was from agemans post so not intended for you. So I was not quoting you.

Now this is a quote from you. >>The inability is not constitutional but spiritual and moral. And God has, in His ineffable justice, decreed to do that work of grace to the hearts of a vast crowd of people, but not to the hearts of everyone (Romans 9:18)<< and this also >>he will not repent and believe, not because he cannot but because he will not (John 3:19; 5:40).<<

Lets look at the first quote first. This is a comment from Albert Barnes which I think explains Rom 90:18 quite well. >>The word “hardeneth” means only to harden in the manner specified in the case of Pharaoh. It does not mean to exert a positive influence, but to leave a sinner to his own course, and to place him in circumstances where the character will be more and more developed...It implies, however, an act of sovereignty on the part of God in thus leaving him to his chosen course, and in not putting forth that influence by which he could be saved from death.<<

So it is not that God hardens so they wont believe but that He allows them to choose to believe or not and that is just free will in action.

When we look at the second quote we see that the same view in in place. Joh 3:19 "This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. Joh 5:40 and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life. For man to love something or to be unwilling requires that they have the ability to make a choice, in other words to have a free will.

>>decreed to do that work of grace to the hearts of a vast crowd of people, but not to the hearts of everyone<< So you have decided that God only wants for some to come to faith but that flies in the face of scripture:
1Ti 2:3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
1Ti 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

The bible is clear that man has a free will because God requires that man make choices. Is God sovereign, yes He is but does that require that He determine everything that happens no it does not. Calvinists want God to determine everything but then say that man is responsible for his sins, that is not even close to being logical. Calvinists are saying God determines all things but does not determine all things.

1- If Calvinism is true, whomever God provides “irresistible grace” to will go to Heaven and not suffer eternal Hell.
2- If God is omnibenevolent (possessing perfect or unlimited goodness), He would not desire to, nor would He, send anyone to suffer eternal Hell for choices they were powerless to make without God’s irresistible grace.
3- If God is omnipotent (having unlimited power; able to do anything), he could provide irresistible grace to all people.
4- If God is omniscient (knowing everything), he would know how to provide irresistible grace to all people.
5- Some people suffer eternal Hell.
6- Therefore, either God is not omnibenevolent, or not omnipotent, or not omniscient (pick at least one), or irresistible grace (and Calvinism) is false.

 

[MB]

Ephesians 2:4-5 answers you and stops your argument in its tracks.

But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—

No free will. No requirements. No human effort.

God made us alive, even when we were dead in our trespasses and sins. you're trying to claim that based on your own assumptions say what you claim

I am so thankful God has been so clear on the issue. He has been so clear that you, with your desperate attempts to promote human works, cannot come up with a plausible alternative. You either accept what God tells you, or you continue with your contentious and rebellious ranting against God's Supremacy.

You really do have a very limited view when you claim that this verse you presented says something it clearly does not say what you claim here by it not saying such your trying to make it say this means no freewill no requirements no human effort It does not say those things It's only in your mind that this is what it means
Paul wrote;
2Co_8:12 For if there be first a willing mind, it is accepted according to that a man hath, and not according to that he hath not..
Willingness is accepted Your claim that man is unable is not provable with scripture because man is alive enough to sin so man is not dead He makes decisions all the time good and bad so does the Christian. In fact most of those who clam Christianity will not hear not can't hear.

Christ said;
Mal_2:2 If ye will not hear, and if ye will not lay it to heart, to give glory unto my name, saith the LORD of hosts, I will even send a curse upon you, and I will curse your blessings: yea, I have cursed them already, because ye do not lay it to heart.Men do not hear because they don't want to listen.

Mat_11:15 He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.
Just about everyone has ears. I can't argue with Him but you do by making the false claim the natural man can't hearor is unable to come to Christ.
MB

 

[agedman]

1- If Calvinism is true, whomever God provides “irresistible grace” to will go to Heaven and not suffer eternal Hell.
2- If God is omnibenevolent (possessing perfect or unlimited goodness), He would not desire to, nor would He, send anyone to suffer eternal Hell for choices they were powerless to make without God’s irresistible grace.
3- If God is omnipotent (having unlimited power; able to do anything), he could provide irresistible grace to all people.
4- If God is omniscient (knowing everything), he would know how to provide irresistible grace to all people.
5- Some people suffer eternal Hell.
6- Therefore, either God is not omnibenevolent, or not omnipotent, or not omniscient (pick at least one), or irresistible grace (and Calvinism) is false.

1. True, but that is not merely Calvinist thinking, for some Armenians also do hold to a type of irresistible influence in which God will lift the lost into a state in which to make their decision. Called prevenient or preceding Grace. Their is no Bible authority given for such a scheme, but is a human construction to manipulate folks away from both the goodness and severity of God.

2. This is not a Scriptural reasoning for it ignores the unlike human benevolence, there is also divine justice. Only God knows the heart, and He has pronounced it desperately wicked, un-fathomable so to human capacity of understanding.

3. Again this is human perspective, God says, “For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so My ways are higher than your ways and My thoughts than your thoughts.”

4. It isn’t a matter of knowing, it is a matter of purpose.

5. Many according to The Christ travel that broad way.

6. Again you are using human thought processes.

The sower sows the seed indiscriminately. But only the prepared soil raises the crop to harvest.

Silverhair, who is the owner of the ground and determines what area is prepared and the use of the other areas?

If you can convince me by Scriptures that humans own the dirt, and that the sower has authority over the seed, then perhaps you might have some claim to your points. But perhaps not

 

[Silverhair]

Ephesians 2:4-5 answers you and stops your argument in its tracks.

But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—

No free will. No requirements. No human effort.

God made us alive, even when we were dead in our trespasses and sins.

I am so thankful God has been so clear on the issue. He has been so clear that you, with your desperate attempts to promote human works, cannot come up with a plausible alternative. You either accept what God tells you, or you continue with your contentious and rebellious ranting against God's Supremacy.

How do you think that stops my argument. Plus you did note that it is not my argument it is what the bible says. You are so stuck in your Calvinist trap that you are unwilling to see anything that scripture says that shows your view is wrong. You want God to be sovereign but only on your terms. Sorry He is not beholding to you or any Calvinist.

>>even when we were dead in our trespasses<< So you state >>No free will. No requirements. No human effort<< So according to you man is not responsible for their sins "no free will" they cannot chose what they do. God just chooses some for no particular reason so the choice is arbitrary as there are no requirements, so He could have saved more or all for that matter. And you say that those that He casts into hell are for His glory, HOW? Would not saving more give more glory to Him? No human effort, but how could there be if God decrees all things.

As I said before you stick with your failed Calvinist system and I will stick with the bible.

 

[Silverhair]

I point you to the same passage of Romans all in the past tense:

18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of people who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19becausethat which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, that is, His eternalpower and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, being understood by what hasbeen made, so that they are without excuse. 21For even though they knew God, they did not [o]honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their reasonings, and their senseless hearts were darkened. 22Claiming to be wise, they became fools,23and they exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible mankind, of birds, four-footed animals, and crawling creatures.

24Therefore God gave them up to vile impurity in the lusts of their hearts, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them. 25For they exchanged the truth of God for falsehood, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

28And just as they did not see fit [v]to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a depraved mind, to do those things that are not proper, 29people having been filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, and evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, andmalice; they are gossips, 30slanderers, [w]haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, 31without understanding, untrustworthy, unfeeling, and unmerciful; 32and although they know the ordinance of God, that thosewho practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but alsoapprove of those who practice them.​

And does not the Scripture also state, “…and such were some of you…”

Certainly, pre-Noah God expected and “winked/winched” at sin; however, Humankind, now that the law is written on the heart, stand “condemned already” and as such God has no obligation to do other then do as He told Moses and Paul quoted in Romans 9, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.”

This in no means makes God unfair, but rather displays His greater understanding of the human condition and the work of the Holy Spirit in bringing folks to redemption.




Certainly, Deuteronomy is important to Israel as a command, and a principle for the believers to follow, for our Lord said, to keep His commandments, especially the two greatest.

How then did Israel follow this command? By duly fulfilling the Law and Temple rights.

Did they? At times, but more often were “stiff necked.” Not much different then believers in this modern age, yet God had his remnant then and He does now.




God rightly expected physical action from the Jews, but did He not say, “their hearts are far from me,” and in another place, “sacrifice and offerings I would not…”

I suggest that the Jews are a direct example of those who know the oracles of God, perform the oracles of God, yet have no heart unless God caused such change in individuals.

Throughout the OT God shows How He selects his remnants, even remarking to the prophet the number of them at one time.

I do not understand the working of the Spirit, for as Christ stated, He comes and goes, and humans don’t know from where to to where.

But God is faithful, and is not unfair to choose Isaac rather then Jacob, Rehab over the other Jericho folks, Ruth rather than an Israeli,….

God could just allow all to perish, but chooses for His purpose.

After all that I still ask you the same question:
So are you saying that when God says we are to seek Him or when the Holy Spirit convicts man that even then man has no ability to turn to God. When He says in Rom 1:20 that man has no excuse for not knowing Him then He was being less than truthful? God expects man to do those things and will hold them responsible for their choices. If man, as you say, cannot then why are they held accountable? Does that sound like the God of the bible to you.

I am not questioning if man fails, they do. But If God expects man to do certain things do you thing He does not give them the ability to do those things?

 

[agedman]

How do you think that stops my argument. Plus you did note that it is not my argument it is what the bible says. You are so stuck in your Calvinist trap that you are unwilling to see anything that scripture says that shows your view is wrong. You want God to be sovereign but only on your terms. Sorry He is not beholding to you or any Calvinist.

>>even when we were dead in our trespasses<< So you state >>No free will. No requirements. No human effort<< So according to you man is not responsible for their sins "no free will" they cannot chose what they do. God just chooses some for no particular reason so the choice is arbitrary as there are no requirements, so He could have saved more or all for that matter. And you say that those that He casts into hell are for His glory, HOW? Would not saving more give more glory to Him? No human effort, but how could there be if God decrees all things.

As I said before you stick with your failed Calvinist system and I will stick with the bible.

The problem of your “sticking to the Bible” is that you have not come to terms with certain Biblical principles that guide one into how they might embrace a Calvinist or Armenian (or some variation).

The general appeal and the indiscriminate sowing of seed does not translate into capacity to be redeemed.

The work of the Holy Spirit to the World does not present that all have some innate ability.

Because I hold a very high regard for the Authority of God I am regarded by some a Calvinistic thinker, yet to some Calvinists an Armenian.

if you do hold the Scriptures as your final authority, then listen to others presentations, present your own thinking, and see how the Spirit of God resolves the issue confirmed in your own mind.

Then you can say, I understand your point of view, and here is how I have concluded.

There is a point of common ground between the two extremes, and some are continuing to work toward that, but until then press on to the high calling of God.

 

[agedman]

After all that I still ask you the same question:
So are you saying that when God says we are to seek Him or when the Holy Spirit convicts man that even then man has no ability to turn to God. When He says in Rom 1:20 that man has no excuse for not knowing Him then He was being less than truthful? God expects man to do those things and will hold them responsible for their choices. If man, as you say, cannot then why are they held accountable? Does that sound like the God of the bible to you.

I am not questioning if man fails, they do. But If God expects man to do certain things do you thing He does not give them the ability to do those things?

What do the writers say?
Do they pair ability with the responsibility?

I showed from the same chapter the writer’s statement in context, Does it not say that God has presented evidence, even written on every heart His law, but has not every man sinned despite such?

Has not every person disregarded and rebelled?

They cannot because they chose to not glorify God. Is that not the statement of Romans 1?

Would you then have God not redeeming any, for all have sinned, and as I posted earlier, “and such were some of you…”

You did not address the sower and seed.

Who is responsible for and prepares the dirt, where the rocks are piled, we’re the road will be, and what is too shallow to mess with?

It is not the sower’s responsibility to question the owner (God), but to remember they are the sower, the servant who has a job to do for their master.

 

[Silverhair]

Well since I am by far not the only one who holds to this... lol

No I am saying that the Calvinist view is not the right one. You want to trust in that theology then go for it. I have said it before that Calvinism does not have any compelling evidence to support it. You have to take verses out of context or twist scripture to make it fit. If that works for you fine but I trust what I see in the bible.
I do not need God to control everything I think or do as it appears some of those on here do require. That is just their comfort zone.

 

[Silverhair]

1. True, but that is not merely Calvinist thinking, for some Armenians also do hold to a type of irresistible influence in which God will lift the lost into a state in which to make their decision. Called prevenient or preceding Grace. Their is no Bible authority given for such a scheme, but is a human construction to manipulate folks away from both the goodness and severity of God.

2. This is not a Scriptural reasoning for it ignores the unlike human benevolence, there is also divine justice. Only God knows the heart, and He has pronounced it desperately wicked, un-fathomable so to human capacity of understanding.

3. Again this is human perspective, God says, “For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so My ways are higher than your ways and My thoughts than your thoughts.”

4. It isn’t a matter of knowing, it is a matter of purpose.

5. Many according to The Christ travel that broad way.

6. Again you are using human thought processes.

The sower sows the seed indiscriminately. But only the prepared soil raises the crop to harvest.

Silverhair, who is the owner of the ground and determines what area is prepared and the use of the other areas?

If you can convince me by Scriptures that humans own the dirt, and that the sower has authority over the seed, then perhaps you might have some claim to your points. But perhaps not

First of I think you should look up what Prevenient Grace is, it is not as you say a form of
irresistible influence. If it were then that would be the same as what the Calvinist posit. Just because God shows His grace toward us does not mean that all will respond in a positive way. Therein lays the major difference between the God of the bible and the god of Calvinism.

Prevenient Grace broadly speaking, this is the grace that “goes before”—that grace which precedes human action and reflects God’s heart for his creation. It testifies to God’s being the initiator of any relationship with him and reveals him as one who pursues us.
You say "There is no Bible authority given for such a scheme" well I would suggest that these verses say differently:
Joh_1:9 “There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man.”
Joh_12:32 “And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.”
Rom_2:4 “Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?“
Tit_2:11 “For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men,”.

Point 2] Are you saying that God does not love the world and does not want all to be saved? Just because all do not come to faith does not mean that God does not desire that does it? God loves His creation but He cannot force us to love Him, if He did then it would not be love on our part would it or for that matter on His.

Point 3] Do you not agree that God is omnipotent? As I just said He could force people to act in whatever manner He chose but would a loving God do that? I say no, He would not.

Point 4] So what do you think the purpose of God is? I believe it is to have a saved people that love and worship Him. Would you not agree? So if that were not His intent but was instead it was to just pick out a select group and make them love Him, that's an oxymoron, then He could do it couldn't He.

Point 5] We agree that many have rejected salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.

Point 6] If God is all these, omnibenevolent, omnipotent, omniscient. Which He is then how can Calvinism be true. Would the God of this character force some to be with Him while at the same time rejecting all others by no fault of their own?

Yes I agree that using your words >>The sower sows the seed indiscriminately.<< And since God is both the one that sows and the one that prepares the soil then that is where you see prevenient grace come into play. To deny that God has a hand in our salvation is foolish but to say that God only picks a select group to be able to be saved is equally foolish. God loves His creation and wants the best for them, would you not agree?