Featured TO KNOW GOD.

Cathode · Dec 11, 2021

1689Dave said: ↑

Unless Born Again, any works are phony.
Click to expand...

Nothing phony about it. It was Jesus that lovingly bathed and cleaned up that baby and treated all the wounds and stench of tropical ulcers. It was Jesus that fed the mother who walked for days through the bush to get to our tent clinic.
God’s strength is in our weakness, I couldn’t do it, I was done like cooked turkey, spent, sick, exhausted and burnt out.

You can sneer all you like at these works of mercy, but these were not mine, these were Jesus works.

You can be cynical, but it shows how far you are from understanding what Love is.

utilyan · Dec 11, 2021

1689Dave said: ↑

Unless Born Again, any works are phony.
Click to expand...

Yet when Jesus gives a prime example of Good Works, AGAPE, He tells of the GOOD SAMARITAN.

If that GOOD SAMARITAN is around today folks would damn him for not being Christian.
His GOOD WORKS would be just as phony.

Much Like the lawyer Jesus is trying to reach, who ain't born again either, Pharisees are still around today. They believe themselves chosen by God given status above the rest.

The difference between the Pharisees and some folks today. One has Yaweh T-shirt the other a Jesus T-shirt.
Character is still the same.

37818 · Dec 11, 2021

Jesus cited back to His Father, ". . . And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. . . ." The Apostle John records this in his account of the gospel of Jesus Christ in John 17:3. In the Revelation of Jesus Christ we are instructed those who perish do not have their names in the book of life, Revelation 20:15, ". . . And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. . . ."

Now as @Cathode reminds us of Jesus' warning in Matthew 7:21-23, ". . . Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

1689Dave · Dec 11, 2021

Cathode said: ↑

Nothing phony about it. It was Jesus that lovingly bathed and cleaned up that baby and treated all the wounds and stench of tropical ulcers. It was Jesus that fed the mother who walked for days through the bush to get to our tent clinic.
God’s strength is in our weakness, I couldn’t do it, I was done like cooked turkey, spent, sick, exhausted and burnt out.

You can sneer all you like at these works of mercy, but these were not mine, these were Jesus works.

You can be cynical, but it shows how far you are from understanding what Love is.
Click to expand...

The Pharisees outgunned anyone in good works, probably even Mother Theresa. But still ended up in Hell. Only Christ did good works and those whom He imputed them to. Our personal works are flawed regardless of how they appear.

DaveXR650 · Dec 11, 2021

Alex2165, Cathode. As far as what a follower of Christ should be doing - love and good works should be tops on the list. But you seem to be suggesting that one simply should begin to do good deeds and then you have satisfied God. If that is the case then God kind of made a big deal out of Jesus having to die on the cross, didn't he. And for what reason. I'm assuming you are Catholic. They don't teach that you just start doing good works either. If you are part of the modern movement which strips away all parts of traditional Christianity; the virgin birth, the resurrection, Christ rising from the dead - and then says "well as long as you show love and good works you're OK - you're simply not a Christian. It always amazes me when I hear someone say that good works are sufficient and then points to someone living somewhere where the gospel has not reached. You see, even if the native could make that excuse you can't. In your case you are deliberately rejecting Christ and what he did. I would be careful.

Cathode · Dec 11, 2021

37818 said: ↑

Jesus cited back to His Father, ". . . And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. . . ." The Apostle John records this in his account of the gospel of Jesus Christ in John 17:3. In the Revelation of Jesus Christ we are instructed those who perish do not have their names in the book of life, Revelation 20:15, ". . . And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. . . ."

Now as @Cathode reminds us of Jesus' warning in Matthew 7:21-23, ". . . Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
Click to expand...

Yes at one point we received Faith by Grace to believe in Christ and His redemptive work on the Cross.
However we are supposed to receive the ongoing graces as our daily bread to Love and carry out the Fathers Will.
We are utterly dependant on Grace, that’s why the good works we do aren’t ours but Christ’s work in the world.
There are many believers however that do not Love as Christ loved, Christ commanded that we Love as He Loved. Do you think that is possible without the ongoing grace from the Father? This daily bread must be asked for, so we do not consider ourselves self sufficient.
A Christian is primarily known by his Love, it is how the world identifies one and how God identifies one.

Paul’s warning about having that Titanic Faith to move mountains, but not having Love/ good works, means you amount to nothing.

That’s why those powerhouses of Faith that prophesied, cast out demons and performed many miracles were condemned by the Lord saying “ I never knew you” , because they had no Love. Jesus said that there would be “ many “ of these Faith champions but Love paupers. I think I have identified the group that fits this description that focuses on “ Faith alone “, and calls Love “ pathetic works “ . This a terrible worry because this group is so boastful of its righteousness but is completely blind to its condemnation of Love.
Some are passively hostile to good works, some are out right hostile to good works but none see Christ’s action in those good works by grace.

They have divorced Faith from Love, that’s why I’ve been trying to snap dudes out of it and tell them to pray for the daily graces to Love before they grow cold.
They do not Love as they first Loved when they first believed, their hearts are withered and are not identifiable with Christ.

So Faith and Love together brothers.

Alex2165 · Dec 11, 2021

Scarlett O. said: ↑

Thank you for clarifying your position, I understand you know. You are asserting here that salvation MUST be "deserved" as you said or earned. We have to be "good" to be saved. You say it is a result of many things including "works". And that it "isn't given for nothing."

I won't give you my opinion, but here is what scripture says about salvation by works and "deserving" it.

Titus 3:5 = "...he saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit..He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit...."

This is CLEAR: NO works of righteousnesss can save a person , ONLY the washing of rebirth.

Romans 5:8-10 = "But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him! For if, while we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! "

This is CLEAR: When I was saved decades ago, I WAS A "SINNER" and God's "ENEMY". God "reconciled" me TO him through the death of his Son - WITHOUT my help.

Romans 3:20 = "For no human being will be justified in his sight by works of the law, since through the law comes knowledge of sin."

This is CLEAR: No human being can work his way into "deserving" salvation.

Ephesians 2:8-9 = "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God NOT by works, so that no one can boast."

This is CLEAR: Salvation is by grace. Grace in Koine Greek is χάρις [khar'-ece]. It mean's God's merciful "favor". You cannot EARN this. Why because outside of it - we are "enemies" of God. God saves evil people all the time: liars, gossipers, child molestors, rapists, murderers, drug addicts, porn addicts, lovers of money, lovers of self. God SAVES without OUR help or assistance.

The Bible says that all kinds of people are going to do all kinds of "good" things and still burst hell wide open. They will boast of their works to Christ and he is going to say, "Sorry, I never knew you. Get away from me." Matthew 7:21-23

So you are wrong. Savlation IS given for NOTHING. It is a free gift. It costs us nothing. It costs Jesus Christ everything!!!

And after we are saved and repent and turn from our wicked ways - THEN comes the good works that God has prepared for us. If saved people don't love God and love others and obey the will of God and do the works of God - then odds are, they were never saved in the first place.

And people who never gave their lives to Christ and submitted to God in repentance, yet do all kinds of good things, AREN'T saved.

Click to expand...

To Scarlett.

THOSE WHO ARE CONSIDERD WORTHY OF SALVATION. DESERVED TO BE SAVED.

Matthew 22.8.14
Parable of Christ about king's feast.
8.Then he said to his slaves, 'The wedding is ready, but those who were invited were not worthy.
14.Many are called, but few are chosen.

Luke 20.34-35
34.Jesus said to them, “Those who belong to this age marry and are given in marriage,

35.but those who are considered WORTHY of a place in that age and in the resurrection from the dead neither marry nor are given in marriage."

Not everyone WORTHY to enter the Kingdom of GOD and inherit Everlasting Life. Blood of Christ is too precious to be wasted on such people.

1Corinthians 6.9-10
9.Do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the Kingdom of GOD? Do not be deceived! Fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, male prostitutes, sodomites,

10.thieves, the greedy, drunkards, revilers, robbers, none of these will inherit the Kingdom of GOD.

Just like regular sacrifice of animal if brought by a wicked person who does not repent and continued do evil will not accepted by GOD, and so the Sacrifice and the Blood of Jesus Christ will not save such person and does not applies to him as his salvation.

As it said above in Matthew 22.14: "Many are called, but few are chosen."

Church deceit people and falsely teach about "Free Salvation," they will receive their reward from GOD according to their deeds, do not take them as example to follow.

Alex2165 · Dec 11, 2021

Scarlett O. said: ↑

Thank you for clarifying your position, I understand you know. You are asserting here that salvation MUST be "deserved" as you said or earned. We have to be "good" to be saved. You say it is a result of many things including "works". And that it "isn't given for nothing."

I won't give you my opinion, but here is what scripture says about salvation by works and "deserving" it.

Titus 3:5 = "...he saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit..He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit...."

This is CLEAR: NO works of righteousnesss can save a person , ONLY the washing of rebirth.

Romans 5:8-10 = "But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him! For if, while we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! "

This is CLEAR: When I was saved decades ago, I WAS A "SINNER" and God's "ENEMY". God "reconciled" me TO him through the death of his Son - WITHOUT my help.

Romans 3:20 = "For no human being will be justified in his sight by works of the law, since through the law comes knowledge of sin."

This is CLEAR: No human being can work his way into "deserving" salvation.

Ephesians 2:8-9 = "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God NOT by works, so that no one can boast."

This is CLEAR: Salvation is by grace. Grace in Koine Greek is χάρις [khar'-ece]. It mean's God's merciful "favor". You cannot EARN this. Why because outside of it - we are "enemies" of God. God saves evil people all the time: liars, gossipers, child molestors, rapists, murderers, drug addicts, porn addicts, lovers of money, lovers of self. God SAVES without OUR help or assistance.

The Bible says that all kinds of people are going to do all kinds of "good" things and still burst hell wide open. They will boast of their works to Christ and he is going to say, "Sorry, I never knew you. Get away from me." Matthew 7:21-23

So you are wrong. Savlation IS given for NOTHING. It is a free gift. It costs us nothing. It costs Jesus Christ everything!!!

And after we are saved and repent and turn from our wicked ways - THEN comes the good works that God has prepared for us. If saved people don't love God and love others and obey the will of God and do the works of God - then odds are, they were never saved in the first place.

And people who never gave their lives to Christ and submitted to God in repentance, yet do all kinds of good things, AREN'T saved.

Click to expand...

To Scarlett.

Concerning Salvation. Part - 2

1Corinthians 5.1.5

1.It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of kind that is not found even among pagans, a man is living with his father’s wife.

5.you are to hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the Day of the Lord.

Try to explain this passage! Even though destruction of flesh a person can be saved. Where is fitting here Free Salvation? Do you remember statement of Christ when He said that whatever part of your body tempting you to commit sin, cut it off from you, it is better to Enter Eternal Life without that part of the body than burned whole body in Hell.

2Corinthians 7.10

10.Godly grief produces a repentance that leads to Salvation and brings no regret, but worldly grief produces death.

Many Christian forgetting repentance when they are talking about Salvation. Without REPENTANCE Salvation is impossible.

Ephesians 1.13

13.In Him (in Jesus Christ) you also when you had heard the Word of truth, the Gospel of your Salvation and had believed in Him, were *marked with the seal of the promised Holy Spirit,

Obedience and implementation of the Gospel of Christ - the New Covenant, also required for Salvation.

Philippians 2.12

12.So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling,

Work out - means Work for you Salvation by doing good deeds, and not just Work, but Work with fear and trembling, means - do not screw up.

1Thessalonians 5.8

8.But since we belong to the day, let us be sober and put on the breastplate of Faith and Love and for a helmet the Hope of salvation.

Another three requirements for Salvation: Faith, Love, and Hope (1Corinthians 13.13) (1Thessalonians 5.8). If one of these tree is missing, "no soup for you," no Salvation can be achieve.

Hebrews 5.9

9.and having been made perfect He (Jesus Christ) became the Source of Eternal Salvation for all who OBEY Him,

Obedience to the Statutes of the Lord is very important requirement for Salvation.

1Peter 2.2

2.Like newborn infants long for the pure spiritual milk, so that by it you may grow into Salvation,

Salvation requires also certain level of Spiritual Growth and Spiritual Maturity.

1Peter 4.18

18.And: ‘If it is hard for the righteous to be Saved, what will become of the ungodly and the sinners?’ (Proverbs 11.31)

If Salvation is Free, why then Peter says here that even for righteous person is hard to be Saved?

Alex2165 · Dec 11, 2021

Scarlett O. said: ↑

Thank you for clarifying your position, I understand you know. You are asserting here that salvation MUST be "deserved" as you said or earned. We have to be "good" to be saved. You say it is a result of many things including "works". And that it "isn't given for nothing."

I won't give you my opinion, but here is what scripture says about salvation by works and "deserving" it.

Titus 3:5 = "...he saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit..He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit...."

This is CLEAR: NO works of righteousnesss can save a person , ONLY the washing of rebirth.

Romans 5:8-10 = "But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him! For if, while we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! "

This is CLEAR: When I was saved decades ago, I WAS A "SINNER" and God's "ENEMY". God "reconciled" me TO him through the death of his Son - WITHOUT my help.

Romans 3:20 = "For no human being will be justified in his sight by works of the law, since through the law comes knowledge of sin."

This is CLEAR: No human being can work his way into "deserving" salvation.

Ephesians 2:8-9 = "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God NOT by works, so that no one can boast."

This is CLEAR: Salvation is by grace. Grace in Koine Greek is χάρις [khar'-ece]. It mean's God's merciful "favor". You cannot EARN this. Why because outside of it - we are "enemies" of God. God saves evil people all the time: liars, gossipers, child molestors, rapists, murderers, drug addicts, porn addicts, lovers of money, lovers of self. God SAVES without OUR help or assistance.

The Bible says that all kinds of people are going to do all kinds of "good" things and still burst hell wide open. They will boast of their works to Christ and he is going to say, "Sorry, I never knew you. Get away from me." Matthew 7:21-23

So you are wrong. Savlation IS given for NOTHING. It is a free gift. It costs us nothing. It costs Jesus Christ everything!!!

And after we are saved and repent and turn from our wicked ways - THEN comes the good works that God has prepared for us. If saved people don't love God and love others and obey the will of God and do the works of God - then odds are, they were never saved in the first place.

And people who never gave their lives to Christ and submitted to God in repentance, yet do all kinds of good things, AREN'T saved.

Click to expand...

Concerning Salvation. Part - 1

The Sacrifices of Jesus Christ as a Passover Lamb and us a Guilt Sacrifice is Free.

Sacrifices of the Law of Moses put certain financial and material burden on the people, but when GOD Father gave His Son as a Sacrifice for our sins that Sacrifice is Free, such Sacrifice cost nothing to us.

Salvation is not Free and requires certain sacrifices on our part.

Matthew 19.29
29.And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or fields for My name’s sake, will receive a hundredfold, and will inherit Eternal Life." (Matthew 6.33, 19.29) (Mark 10.28-30) (Luke 18.28-30)

In other words, abandon everything dear to you and most precious to your heart, and you will inherit Eternal Life. As you can see, Salvation of the soul is not Free.

Matthew 25.46
Words of Jesus at His Second Coming then He pass the Judgment on the nations of the Earth.

46."And these will go away into Eternal Punishment, but the righteous into Eternal Life.”

Righteousness is one of those qualities that leads to Eternal Life, and you MUST be Righteous. No righteousness, no Salvation!

Alex2165 · Dec 11, 2021

Scarlett O. said: ↑

Thank you for clarifying your position, I understand you know. You are asserting here that salvation MUST be "deserved" as you said or earned. We have to be "good" to be saved. You say it is a result of many things including "works". And that it "isn't given for nothing."

I won't give you my opinion, but here is what scripture says about salvation by works and "deserving" it.

Titus 3:5 = "...he saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit..He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit...."

This is CLEAR: NO works of righteousnesss can save a person , ONLY the washing of rebirth.

Romans 5:8-10 = "But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him! For if, while we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! "

This is CLEAR: When I was saved decades ago, I WAS A "SINNER" and God's "ENEMY". God "reconciled" me TO him through the death of his Son - WITHOUT my help.

Romans 3:20 = "For no human being will be justified in his sight by works of the law, since through the law comes knowledge of sin."

This is CLEAR: No human being can work his way into "deserving" salvation.

Ephesians 2:8-9 = "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God NOT by works, so that no one can boast."

This is CLEAR: Salvation is by grace. Grace in Koine Greek is χάρις [khar'-ece]. It mean's God's merciful "favor". You cannot EARN this. Why because outside of it - we are "enemies" of God. God saves evil people all the time: liars, gossipers, child molestors, rapists, murderers, drug addicts, porn addicts, lovers of money, lovers of self. God SAVES without OUR help or assistance.

The Bible says that all kinds of people are going to do all kinds of "good" things and still burst hell wide open. They will boast of their works to Christ and he is going to say, "Sorry, I never knew you. Get away from me." Matthew 7:21-23

So you are wrong. Savlation IS given for NOTHING. It is a free gift. It costs us nothing. It costs Jesus Christ everything!!!

And after we are saved and repent and turn from our wicked ways - THEN comes the good works that God has prepared for us. If saved people don't love God and love others and obey the will of God and do the works of God - then odds are, they were never saved in the first place.

And people who never gave their lives to Christ and submitted to God in repentance, yet do all kinds of good things, AREN'T saved.

Click to expand...

Part 3
Ephesians 2.4-5.8

4.But GOD Who is rich in mercy, out of the great love with which He loved us,

5.even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ, by Grace (by Jesus Christ as Free Guilt Sacrifice) you have been saved,

8.By Grace (by Jesus Christ as Free Guilt Sacrifice) you have been saved through Faith and this is not your own doing, it is the Gift of GOD (Free Gift of Guilt Sacrifice by Jesus Christ).

Faith is another requirement for Salvation. Grace means MERCY, COMPASSION. Out of such great LOVE Jesus Christ Sacrificed Himself. Jesus Christ became our Free Sacrifice, not Free Salvation. For Salvation we have to work as indicated above, and have certain qualities that required for Salvation.

Romans 5.15

15.But the free a Gift (Jesus Christ as Guilt Sacrifice) is not like the trespass. If the many died through the one man’s (Adam's) trespass, much more surely have the Grace of GOD and the free Gift (Jesus Christ as Free Guilt Sacrifice) in the Grace of the one Man Jesus Christ abounded for the many.

Romans 6.24

24.The wages of sin is death, but the free Gift of GOD (Jesus Christ as Free Guilt Sacrifice) is (leads to) Eternal Life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Free Gift of Free Guilt Sacrifice, Not Salvation.

1Corinthians 3.15

15.If the work is burned up, the builder will suffer loss, the builder will be saved, but only as through fire.

According to this verse Salvation requires great effort on the part of believer as a passage through fire.

Alex2165 · Dec 11, 2021

Scarlett O. said: ↑

Thank you for clarifying your position, I understand you know. You are asserting here that salvation MUST be "deserved" as you said or earned. We have to be "good" to be saved. You say it is a result of many things including "works". And that it "isn't given for nothing."

I won't give you my opinion, but here is what scripture says about salvation by works and "deserving" it.

Titus 3:5 = "...he saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit..He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit...."

This is CLEAR: NO works of righteousnesss can save a person , ONLY the washing of rebirth.

Romans 5:8-10 = "But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him! For if, while we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! "

This is CLEAR: When I was saved decades ago, I WAS A "SINNER" and God's "ENEMY". God "reconciled" me TO him through the death of his Son - WITHOUT my help.

Romans 3:20 = "For no human being will be justified in his sight by works of the law, since through the law comes knowledge of sin."

This is CLEAR: No human being can work his way into "deserving" salvation.

Ephesians 2:8-9 = "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God NOT by works, so that no one can boast."

This is CLEAR: Salvation is by grace. Grace in Koine Greek is χάρις [khar'-ece]. It mean's God's merciful "favor". You cannot EARN this. Why because outside of it - we are "enemies" of God. God saves evil people all the time: liars, gossipers, child molestors, rapists, murderers, drug addicts, porn addicts, lovers of money, lovers of self. God SAVES without OUR help or assistance.

The Bible says that all kinds of people are going to do all kinds of "good" things and still burst hell wide open. They will boast of their works to Christ and he is going to say, "Sorry, I never knew you. Get away from me." Matthew 7:21-23

So you are wrong. Savlation IS given for NOTHING. It is a free gift. It costs us nothing. It costs Jesus Christ everything!!!

And after we are saved and repent and turn from our wicked ways - THEN comes the good works that God has prepared for us. If saved people don't love God and love others and obey the will of God and do the works of God - then odds are, they were never saved in the first place.

And people who never gave their lives to Christ and submitted to God in repentance, yet do all kinds of good things, AREN'T saved.

Click to expand...

Part - 4

Ephesians 2.4-5.8

4.But GOD Who is rich in mercy, out of the great love with which He loved us,

5.even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ, by Grace (by Jesus Christ as Free Guilt Sacrifice) you have been saved,

8.By Grace (by Jesus Christ as Free Guilt Sacrifice) you have been saved through Faith and this is not your own doing, it is the Gift of GOD (Free Gift of Guilt Sacrifice by Jesus Christ).

Faith is another requirement for Salvation. Grace means MERCY, COMPASSION. Out of such great LOVE Jesus Christ Sacrificed Himself. Jesus Christ became our Free Sacrifice, not Free Salvation. For Salvation we have to work as indicated above, and have certain qualities that required for Salvation.

Romans 5.15

15.But the free a Gift (Jesus Christ as Guilt Sacrifice) is not like the trespass. If the many died through the one man’s (Adam's) trespass, much more surely have the Grace of GOD and the free Gift (Jesus Christ as Free Guilt Sacrifice) in the Grace of the one Man Jesus Christ abounded for the many.

Romans 6.24

24.The wages of sin is death, but the free Gift of GOD (Jesus Christ as Free Guilt Sacrifice) is (leads to) Eternal Life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Free Gift of Free Guilt Sacrifice, Not Salvation.

1Corinthians 3.15

15.If the work is burned up, the builder will suffer loss, the builder will be saved, but only as through fire.

According to this verse Salvation requires great effort on the part of believer as a passage through fire.

Alex2165 · Dec 11, 2021

Scarlett O. said: ↑

Thank you for clarifying your position, I understand you know. You are asserting here that salvation MUST be "deserved" as you said or earned. We have to be "good" to be saved. You say it is a result of many things including "works". And that it "isn't given for nothing."

I won't give you my opinion, but here is what scripture says about salvation by works and "deserving" it.

Titus 3:5 = "...he saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit..He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit...."

This is CLEAR: NO works of righteousnesss can save a person , ONLY the washing of rebirth.

Romans 5:8-10 = "But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him! For if, while we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! "

This is CLEAR: When I was saved decades ago, I WAS A "SINNER" and God's "ENEMY". God "reconciled" me TO him through the death of his Son - WITHOUT my help.

Romans 3:20 = "For no human being will be justified in his sight by works of the law, since through the law comes knowledge of sin."

This is CLEAR: No human being can work his way into "deserving" salvation.

Ephesians 2:8-9 = "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God NOT by works, so that no one can boast."

This is CLEAR: Salvation is by grace. Grace in Koine Greek is χάρις [khar'-ece]. It mean's God's merciful "favor". You cannot EARN this. Why because outside of it - we are "enemies" of God. God saves evil people all the time: liars, gossipers, child molestors, rapists, murderers, drug addicts, porn addicts, lovers of money, lovers of self. God SAVES without OUR help or assistance.

The Bible says that all kinds of people are going to do all kinds of "good" things and still burst hell wide open. They will boast of their works to Christ and he is going to say, "Sorry, I never knew you. Get away from me." Matthew 7:21-23

So you are wrong. Savlation IS given for NOTHING. It is a free gift. It costs us nothing. It costs Jesus Christ everything!!!

And after we are saved and repent and turn from our wicked ways - THEN comes the good works that God has prepared for us. If saved people don't love God and love others and obey the will of God and do the works of God - then odds are, they were never saved in the first place.

And people who never gave their lives to Christ and submitted to God in repentance, yet do all kinds of good things, AREN'T saved.

Click to expand...

To Scarlett.

Concerning Works.

I knew that you will present these verses, as it was done before by some other people on this forum.

When Paul wrote this statements under word "works" Paul meant not good deeds at all, he meant physical Statutes of the Law of Moses: physical rituals of cleanness, food laws, sacrifices of animals, laws of personal hygiene, and even such rituals as circumcision, Paul categorized them as "WORKS", the Works of the Law of Moses.

Why Paul did this, because newly converted Jews and Gentiles argued at that time what kind of Laws of Moses they should obey and not obey. They still did not understood and cannot separate the physical Laws of Moses from the spiritual Laws of Moses, and because of that they have been confused and couldn't come up with any firm decision.

The Law of Moses was written and well known, but the Statutes and Commandments of Jesus Christ propagated only verbally at the time of Paul, and this caused confusion and countless disagreements concerning which Law to keep and which to abandon.

So the point is that Paul in any way talking in his letters and speeches about good deeds, but he talking about only the physical Ordinances of the Law of Moses mentioned above, which under Christ became obsolete, that Laws Paul called "WORKS," the Works of the Law of Moses, not the Good Works.

There is no contradictions in the Bible, and Apostles of Christ did not argued about issue of the Works of the Law and the Good Works of Jesus Christ, but only those argued who did not understood the difference between those two, as unfortunately it happens and today.

So Paul and James did not contradict or disagreed with one another, but they are talking about completely different things.

Van · Dec 12, 2021

I think a song mentions this: To know Him is to love Him...

DaveXR650 · Dec 12, 2021

Alex. For gentiles the ceremonial laws were indeed abolished. I don't know what your background is but I know there is a lot of confusion regarding "doing away with the law". As a means of attaining a righteous standing before God it is done away with. I agree with those who believe that it is still a rule of life though. And that is not universally held among Protestants nowadays even though it is still in the WCF.

Also, when people on here are adamant about "no good works allowed" they are usually talking about justification. I believe that justification occurs with no works being involved at all. Most reformers, including Calvin and Luther, taught that the Catholic church had combined justification with sanctification which at the level of clergy can lead to wrong teaching for sure. But they also taught that justification and sanctification, though separate in definition cannot be pulled apart and you must have sanctification that follows justification. Sanctification does have the direct involvement of us and does include good works but also a killing of sin and pursuit of holiness. Based on this, a lot of Puritan writers flat out said that "good works" are indeed necessary for salvation.

37818 · Dec 12, 2021

Cathode said: ↑

Yes at one point we received Faith by Grace to believe in Christ and His redemptive work on the Cross.
However we are supposed to receive the ongoing graces as our daily bread to Love and carry out the Fathers Will.
We are utterly dependant on Grace, that’s why the good works we do aren’t ours but Christ’s work in the world.
There are many believers however that do not Love as Christ loved, Christ commanded that we Love as He Loved. Do you think that is possible without the ongoing grace from the Father? This daily bread must be asked for, so we do not consider ourselves self sufficient.
A Christian is primarily known by his Love, it is how the world identifies one and how God identifies one.

Paul’s warning about having that Titanic Faith to move mountains, but not having Love/ good works, means you amount to nothing.

That’s why those powerhouses of Faith that prophesied, cast out demons and performed many miracles were condemned by the Lord saying “ I never knew you” , because they had no Love. Jesus said that there would be “ many “ of these Faith champions but Love paupers. I think I have identified the group that fits this description that focuses on “ Faith alone “, and calls Love “ pathetic works “ . This a terrible worry because this group is so boastful of its righteousness but is completely blind to its condemnation of Love.
Some are passively hostile to good works, some are out right hostile to good works but none see Christ’s action in those good works by grace.

They have divorced Faith from Love, that’s why I’ve been trying to snap dudes out of it and tell them to pray for the daily graces to Love before they grow cold.
They do not Love as they first Loved when they first believed, their hearts are withered and are not identifiable with Christ.

So Faith and Love together brothers.
Click to expand...

Some things to note. God is the one who keeps the New Covenant for us, else we perish, God said, in Jeremiah 31:34 cited in Hebrews 8:12, ". . . their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more." The Apostle John wrote of it, 1 John 4:7, ". . . Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. . . ." And in 1 John 5:9-13, ". . . If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son. He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. . . ." The Apostle Paul state in Romans 8:9, ". . . if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. . . ."

DaveXR650 · Dec 12, 2021

Cathode said: ↑

That’s why those powerhouses of Faith that prophesied, cast out demons and performed many miracles were condemned by the Lord saying “ I never knew you” , because they had no Love. Jesus said that there would be “ many “ of these Faith champions but Love paupers.
Click to expand...

Are you referring to Matthew 7:21-23? These were not "powerhouses of Faith". They were false prophets, and ravening wolves and were told to depart because they were "workers of iniquity".

Alex2165 · Dec 12, 2021

Van said: ↑

I think a song mentions this: To know Him is to love Him...
Click to expand...

Yes Van, I heard this song too.

But what love really is?

Is love means hugs and kisses? Even Judas kissed Christ before he betrayed Him. Is what was expression of love?

Is love means pleasant words? Promises of eternal fidelity, loyalty, and faith?

Can love can be express in words?

How a person can prove his or her love without showing the DEEDS of love, and not the words alone?

Alex2165 · Dec 12, 2021

DaveXR650 said: ↑

Alex. For gentiles the ceremonial laws were indeed abolished. I don't know what your background is but I know there is a lot of confusion regarding "doing away with the law". As a means of attaining a righteous standing before God it is done away with. I agree with those who believe that it is still a rule of life though. And that is not universally held among Protestants nowadays even though it is still in the WCF.

Also, when people on here are adamant about "no good works allowed" they are usually talking about justification. I believe that justification occurs with no works being involved at all. Most reformers, including Calvin and Luther, taught that the Catholic church had combined justification with sanctification which at the level of clergy can lead to wrong teaching for sure. But they also taught that justification and sanctification, though separate in definition cannot be pulled apart and you must have sanctification that follows justification. Sanctification does have the direct involvement of us and does include good works but also a killing of sin and pursuit of holiness. Based on this, a lot of Puritan writers flat out said that "good works" are indeed necessary for salvation.
Click to expand...

Hi DaveXR.

You wrote:
"Also, when people on here are adamant about "no good works allowed" they are usually talking about justification. I believe that justification occurs with no works being involved at all."

To be Justifying people of GOD and the candidates for salvation on our words alone without Good Works which is proof of our Faith in GOD is pretty much equivalent to one who promise you love forever, but married you only for money.

Concerning sanctification, yes indeed, some people in the Bible have been sanctified even before they even able to do anything good in the name of GOD, they have been sanctified purely according to the spiritual condition of their heart that the Lord GOD foreseen in them ahead of time.

These are very special people whom GOD predetermined and appointed for certain tasks. These exception shall not generalized as a public domain, but treated as exceptional cases.

Concerning different denominations and their point of view on justification and sanctification, it is mostly they own traditions and doctrines that are not Biblical in their essence.

Concerning Justification.

To Romans 2.13
13.It is not the hearers of the Law who are righteous in GOD’S sight, but the DOERS of the Law who will be Justified. (Luke 6.46-49) (Romans 2.13) (James 1.22-25)

James 2.21.24
21.Was not Abraham our father Justified by WORKS when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?

24.You see that a man is Justified by WORKS and not by faith alone.

25.And in the same way was not Rahab the harlot also Justified by WORKS ...

Galatians 3.8
8.And the scripture foreseeing that GOD would justify the Gentiles by Faith, declared the Gospel beforehand to Abraham saying, "All the Gentiles shall be blessed in you." (Genesis 12.3, 18.18, 22.18, 26.4, 27.29, 28.14) (Numbers 24.9) (Acts 2.39, 3.25) (Galatians 3.8)

And as have been said that Faith without Works is dead (James 2.26), so Justification of our belonging to GOD requires Works of Faith.

Luke 16.15
15.And He said to them, "You are those who Justify yourselves in the sight of men, but GOD knows your hearts, for, that which is highly esteemed among men is detestable in the sight of GOD."

Romans 3.30-31
30.Indeed, GOD Who will Justify the circumcised by Faith and the uncircumcised through Faith, is One.

31.Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law.

Let see that the Bible said about Consecration:

Exodus 19.10
10.the Lord said to Moses, "Go to the people and consecrate them today and tomorrow. Have them wash their clothes,"

Exodus 20.11
11."In six days the Lord made Heaven and Earth, the sea and all that is in them, but rested the Seventh Day, therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath Day and consecrated it."

This is why those who observe Sabbath specially Blessed and Consecrated and that Holy Day automatically, by default.

Exodus 22.31
31."You shall people consecrated to Me, therefore you shall not eat any meat that is mangled by beasts in the field, you shall throw it to the dogs.”

And so many other similar Laws of Moses are written in the Bible where people consecrated and keep themselves consecrated by bathing in the water (early Baptism).

But concerning the New Testament, consecration in general done through Baptism, Spiritual Circumcision, and by Holy Spirit, not by default.

agedman · Dec 12, 2021

Demons and the prince of liars know God and Christ. They have met and talked often and face to face (so to speak), but such filled with darkness have no love of any amount. Neither do those who dwell in and embrace their darkness. They may appear grateful, may seem loving, but that is limited by the lack of truth and the Love of God.

God is love, but He is also the God of justice and vengeance.

The believer may certainly do good by offering shelter, food, clothing, education, ..., but Christ offered none of these. Rather, He offers a change of heart and perspective when one believes and turns in total trust and reliance upon Him.

Believers, being Christ like, and learning of God also obliges one to be discerning and test the spirit to see if it is of God. To preach the Scriptures and implore those without Christ to believe. Those who don't believe must be treated as such. "Do not give dogs what is holy, and do not throw your pearls before pigs...." Matthew 7:6

Too often (imo), believers run on emotion and disregard basic spiritual discernment.

Silverhair · Dec 12, 2021

1689Dave said: ↑

You have it exactly backward. The new birth happens in the elect before they can believe in Christ. It creates His presence in their hearts causing them to believe. Based on that experience.
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Actually Dave the bible tells us we have to hear the gospel & believe what it says and then God saves us. We are save because we believe not so that we will believe.
Rom 1:16
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ,
for it is the power of God to salvation
for everyone who believes

Joh 3:14-15
14 “so must the Son of Man be lifted up
15 so that whoever believes
will in Him have eternal life

Rom 5:1
Therefore, having been justified by faith,
Rom 5:2
we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace

I just gave you the main points but you can read the whole verse in your bible.

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