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Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Alex2165, Dec 8, 2021.

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  1. DaveXR650

    DaveXR650 Well-Known Member

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    Yes, reformed theology does a good job of addressing that and remember - in justification you are dealing with God. Deception in that case is not wise.

    That's one charge I don't understand. Get on any of the reformed confessions and you find tons of scripture after each point. It's how it's set up!

    Romans 2 is not the way of salvation. The writer is setting up salvation by showing that hearing God's law is no benefit because you don't do it! There is not suggestion in the context that anyone really does right - in fact the point is to make us all guilty.

    At least that's my view, which probably isn't that important, but thanks for replying anyway.
     
    #41 DaveXR650, Dec 13, 2021
  2. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    According to some, love means never having to say you are sorry...
    Or how about love grows in the garden of commitment.
    Or how about 1 Corinthians 13.

    Before we categorize love as an "expression," perhaps we might consider love as an attribute.
    I think love could be an attribute of a person, even without expression, deeds, or proof. God knows our heart attitude.

    Final though: Christ demonstrated His love for us in that while we were still sinners, He died for us. So an attitude of sacrificing for the benefit of another certainly reflects "agape" love. Scripture says if we love Christ, we will keep His commandments. And if we are not willing to aside fleshly desire, worldly treasure and selfishness, do we not demonstrate a lack of love for God?


    \
     
    #42 Van, Dec 13, 2021
  3. George Antonios

    George Antonios Well-Known Member

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    Yes but keep in mind that John wasn't our apostle. There is a reason such verses only come out of the gospels or general epistles, almost never out of Paul.
     
    #43 George Antonios, Dec 13, 2021
  4. Alex2165

    Alex2165 Active Member

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    You wrote:

    "The believer may certainly do good by offering shelter, food, clothing, education, ..., but Christ offered none of these. Rather, He offers a change of heart and perspective when one believes and turns in total trust and reliance upon Him."

    Yes, Christ did not offered any shelter because he did not have one, yes Christ did not offered clothing because He had none.

    Concerning food and education here you are very wrong.

    Christ fed 5.000 people, and you do not remember it?

    Christ educated crowds in the Law of Moses and in all Spiritual Commandments of the Law in the synagogues on every Sabbath and in the Temple every day, and you do not remember it? Are you ever read the Bible?

    How short memory you have Agedman (well, you are aged, cannot blame you for that).

    I perfectly know and understand there you are leaning too when you wrote: "Rather, He offers a change of heart and perspective when one believes and turns in total trust and reliance upon Him."

    When explain please what it means, "when one believes and turns in total trust and reliance upon Him." Give me some details how you do it, without doing anything in the name of GOD.
     
    #44 Alex2165, Dec 13, 2021
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2021
  5. Alex2165

    Alex2165 Active Member

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    If love is attribute how you express it? Or you just keep it for a rainy day?

    What is the point to have attribute and never use it? In that case the attribute will be useless and worthless.

    You wrote:
    " Final though: Christ demonstrated His love for us in that while we were still sinners, He died for us."

    Demonstrated and Expressed are not the same as some action took place?

    If Christ had only attribute of love and did not demonstrated or expressed His love on the cross, would it bring salvation? What then the point to having love and not using it.

    Prove you love by action and not by words only.

    How GOD prove that He loves the world, He sacrificed Himself for the world, that is you wrote in your "final thought." In other words, Christ proved His love by action and not by words alone.

    John 15.13
    13."No one has greater love than this, to lay down one’s life for one’s friends."

    Therefore it said:

    John 14.15.21.23-24.28-29.31
    15."If you love Me you will keep My Commandments."

    1Thessalonians 1.3
    3."trembling before our GOD and Father, your WORK of Faith, and LABOR of love, and steadfastness of Hope in our Lord Jesus Christ."

    If faith without works is dead, how much more love without expression.

    If you have a wife, how you express your love for her? Or you love just attribute?

    1John 3.18
    18."Little children, let us love not in word or speech, but in truth and action."
     
    #45 Alex2165, Dec 13, 2021
  6. Alex2165

    Alex2165 Active Member

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    I respect your opinion Dave, and I do not want argue with you on every point you made.

    But concerning Roman 2.13, I would like ask you a question.

    You wrote:
    "Romans 2 is not the way of salvation."

    What the way of Salvation beyond obeying the Statutes of GOD and living according to His Commandments?

    If the DOERS of the Law are JUSTIFIED by GOD, means JUSTIFIED to be GOD disciples, worthy of Kingdom of GOD, worthy of Salvation, and worthy of Eternal Life, what else possibly can lead to Salvation?

    If you will say that by the Blood of Christ we saved and by nothing else, as many think so on this forum, then why we need teachings and Commandments of Christ?

    Why we need love, compassion, mercy, good deeds, and the rest of GOD'S Ordinances?

    All of that became meaningless if we are already saved by the Blood of Christ.

    And what we are argue about on this forum if we are already saved and nothing to worry about?

    Case close, by the Blood of Christ we "saved."
     
    #46 Alex2165, Dec 14, 2021
  7. DaveXR650

    DaveXR650 Well-Known Member

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    I would say, Alex, to read all the first 3 chapters of Romans at one sitting when you have time. Don't look for single points but try to get an overall impression. The way I see it, Jews seemed to be very proud that the Law had been given to them. But Paul says that it did them no good because they didn't keep it. Romans 3:9 to the end of the chapter shows the state of all mankind. It's not saying you personally have done everything mentioned but the point is we have not kept the Law.

    The problem is the "The soul that sinneth, it shall die". From Adam and Eve being kicked out of the garden to Jesus the Bible is a story of man failing to do the simplest and most plain commandments of God, if not outright rebelling against God. You will find in your studies that there is no remedy for offending a holy God, except blood sacrifice.

    You can read Luther, who was a serious Catholic monk, or Bunyan, the Puritan, and they both had the same thoughts as you. In Pilgrim's Progress, Bunyan says that he decided first to stop sinning and do right by God. But he discovered that 1. He could do nothing to get forgiveness for the debts he already owed. 2. He found that no matter how hard he tried he kept sinning in some way - piling up more sin that he could not pay for.
     
    #47 DaveXR650, Dec 14, 2021
  8. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    1) What is an attribute? "a quality, character, or characteristic ascribed to someone..."

    2) To have any attribute "ascribed" requires it to be observed, thus demonstrated and expressed habitually.

    3) Presenting truth with words, such as humility, does reveal character.

    4) No one suggested to put love in a bottle, the attribute is revealed by behavior, whether words or actions or both. Remember all the scripture that teaches us to control our tongue and use it for Christ's ministry.

    5) No one said or suggested lip service (not walking the talk) expressed actual devotion to Christ.
     
    #48 Van, Dec 14, 2021
  9. Alex2165

    Alex2165 Active Member

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    I read Romans many times and I know very well that is written in it.

    But the purpose of the single points is to show that at least we can observe something from the Law that we able and willing to fulfill.

    It is also written that if one Statutes of the Law is broken, entire Law is broken as well (I am paraphrasing).

    Is any one who ever lived on Earth completely fulfill the Law (except Christ)? Not one.

    Even angels are not perfect in GOD'S sight, how much more human beings! GOD Father knows that, and Jesus Christ knows that.

    But it does not means that the Law should be abandoned and forgotten, otherwise with what kind of moral standards we would direct our life?

    Law is the directional sigh standing on the intersection of crossroads of our life and pointing to a way leading to GOD.

    But what it means striving in perfection in GOD? It means to do our best observing the Law as much as we can.

    Personally I noticed in myself how much progress I have in learning the Law, starting from very little, and now understanding and observing much more than before, which is changed my life completely. And more I study the better my life is, and I feel blessed like never before.

    What it has to do with the Blood of Christ? It gave me continuation of life and enough time to learn and live according to His Commandments, and be acceptable as a follower of the Son of GOD. In other words, became believer in Christ.

    Christ was the Sacrifice for my sins instead of me, and His Sacrifice allowed me to live and change my life for better, toward GOD, and now I am growing in Christ, living and observing His Laws as much as I can. I am not perfect but strive to higher perfection in Christ's Commandments.

    Of course it applies only to me. May be other people have different way dealing with the Law and believe in Gospel and GOD, but this is my way to achieve greater perfection in following Jesus Christ.

    I do not force anyone to read my posts and statements or to be agree with me on everything, but I feel that it is my right to share my experience in Christ with others which is my obligation as a Christian.

    Commenting on your second paragraph you mentioned well known formula, blood must be shed for sin.

    Yes, and Christ shed His Blood for all. And I assume that you think that because of the Blood of Christ we are all saved for Eternal Life and the Law no longer plays important part in our lives, but only Blood of Christ. Well, I respect you opinion, but my opinion is different and it also based on the Scriptures of the Bible, just like yours.

    You ask me to read Romans, I did, now please read these quotes where Christ talking about Hell and who will be in it.

    If blood of Christ saves all, why some people still ending in Hell?

    Matthew 5.22.29-30, 7.13-14.21-23, 8.11-12, 10.28, 13.41.49-50, 18.8-9, 23.15. Mark 9.43-48, Luke 13.26, 16.23-28.

    Matthew 25.41.46

    41."Then He will say to those at His left hand, ‘You that are accursed, depart from Me into the eternal fire prepared for the Devil and his angels.

    46.And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”


    Does righteousness comes from the Blood of Christ or from the Law of Christ?

    Concerning your third paragraph, experience of one man not necessary the same as of another man.

    If you feel that it relates to you, no problem, this is your personal experience.

    My experience is different, and so of others, and because of it the Blood of Jesus Christ and His Law are not the same shoe, the size of which fits all.
     
    #49 Alex2165, Dec 14, 2021
  10. DaveXR650

    DaveXR650 Well-Known Member

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    Correct. And there is in Christianity in American a tendency to do that in actual teaching or at least in practice. But I don't agree with that either. When the Bible talks about doing away with the law it means the law as your means of salvation. If you disagree with that then we just have to disagree.

    Here's where we differ. His sacrifice is the ONLY thing that justified you before God. Nothing in addition, nothing added. (Now note: this does not make living for God and following Christ optional as some teach in American Christianity).

    I like reading your posts and have enjoyed the conversation. You never offend me just because we might disagree on something. I can learn too.

    That's not a "well known formula". It is the Gospel. And you assume wrong. I think I have spoken clear enough myself.

    In summary. Since I believe that following Christ in love and good works is how you live after being justified through His blood and it is not an option, and you believe that His blood gets you started on the path which seems to be like my path - I'm not sure how much difference there is. In other words, if you meld sanctification and justification, does that mean you are not saved? I don't know. I do know that if you are getting this from some church, and it sounds like Roman Catholicism, I would run from such teaching like my soul depended on it.


    .
     
    #50 DaveXR650, Dec 15, 2021
  11. Alex2165

    Alex2165 Active Member

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    We have some differences in understanding Scriptures, but this is not surprising at all, even early Christian included Apostles of Christ also have their differences.

    So continue to argue has no point.

    You wrote:
    "I do know that if you are getting this from some church,.."

    My points of view, opinions, and understanding are not based on any church dogmas, I do not follow any church doctrines or traditions, and haven't been in the church for some while.

    I quit the church because it became unbearably fake and no longer serve its original purpose, to educated and to support according to the Word of GOD.

    But my understanding and my opinions are purely based on that I read in the Bible.

    Well, I wish you all the best.

    GOD bless you.

    Alex.
     
    #51 Alex2165, Dec 15, 2021
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