Featured Is repentance an aspect of faith, or is repentance a good work?

Martin you seem to have missed an important part of the text you quoted.

John 6:43-45
But Jesus replied, “Stop complaining about what I said. For no one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them to me, and at the last day I will raise them up. As it is written in the Scriptures, ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me.

Those are important words.
Those who respond to the teaching of God's Word and learn from the Father are the ones who come to Christ. Here we see two great truths, God's sovereignty and man's choice placed side by side in Scripture. They show us that salvation has a divine side and a human side as well.

 

They are important words. They do nothing to change the truth that God draws (drags) them to Jesus.
Tell me how dead people listen to the Father and learn from the Father.
Silverhair, God makes people alive, even though they were dead. You seem to disregard this truth.

 

O house of Israel, can I not do with you as this potter?" says the LORD. if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it. Jer 18:8

if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will relent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it. Jer 18:10

Please note that there was a condition attached to what God would or would not do. So we can see that God has set a pattern for how He deals with His creation.

I can agree that we all sin and we all deserve to be judged. But I must ask why do you think it a miracle that God chooses to save anyone? Do you not trust what the bible says? God desires that all men come to salvation {1Ti 2:3-4} so do you not think He would provide the why that can happen? The bible tells us that He did {Joh 3:17} and we even know that it is for all men not just a select few. 1Ti 4:10

So as you can see your idea that if grace was resistible then everyone would end up condemned is really not correct. In fact we know that the Holy Spirit can be resisted and we have a text that shows this. Act_7:51 Now you may say but Stephen was speaking to Jews and I agree but do you think they are the only ones that can resist His promptings? If so why do we have Christ Jesus saying "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. Joh 3:18

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Verses 19-20 refer back to those spoken of in verse 18. Those that do not believe. When you look at the context in which a verse is found it will help you understand the verse in question. As you can see those the believe are not judged but those that do not believe are judged already.

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Read post # 81 re Joh 6:43-45 I commented on these verses there.

Note I named Martin in the post but it should have been Austin

 

So if, as you say, "God draws (drags) them to Jesus." you are promoting universalism. Christ Jesus says in Joh 12:32 "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself." Note He is not saying some men or just a select group of men but all men.
Your theology is leading you into some very deep and dark waters.

 

I am glad that you came out of that questionable group. I have to disagree with your view of (we do not choose God until after God chooses us) as that is not what I find in scripture. So we will just have to agree to disagree on that and I should imagine a number of other points.

While I at times may seem a bit intense it is only because I hold the scriptures and the character of God in high regard. We are all part of the family of God and as you know families do tend to have disagreements now and then.

 

It's only universalism if you imagine the word "all" is referring to every human being upon the planet that has ever or will ever exist. Looking at the entirety of scripture it is clear that "all" is not used in that fashion. Instead, Jesus is telling Jews that He will drag more than Jews into the Kingdom. Jesus will drag people from all nations, tribes and tongues. How do we know this? The Revelation tells us that people from all groups are present in heaven.
Now, let's flip the coin and imagine you take the "all" to be universal to every single human. You look at it and conclude that since not all are saved, this means one of two things.
1) Jesus lied
2) Humans are so strong in their own willpower that they have forced Jesus statement to be false and thus thwarted God.

So I read your "note" telling me I cannot understand "all" to be contextual to be more than just Jews so that it includes all Gentile peoples and I conclude that you must ignore this truth in order for you to prop up your false philosophy of "free-will" that thwarts God's will.
You pretzel the verse and ultimately call Jesus a liar since not all humanity is saved.
I recognize the whole of scripture and the context. There is no contradiction in my position and no telling Jesus that human will is greater than he is, which is ultimately your argument.

 

Unfortunately you don't hold God as Supreme, but instead lift up humanity as greater than God.

 

You have ignored the fact that all will choose sin over God without the supernatural "draw" of God ...

• I agree that Salvation is available to all without exception in that the grace offered by Christ is sufficient for all.
• All men naturally rejected that grace (Romans 3:10+)
• God irresistibly "drew" (John 6:44) some that the dead might be made alive (Ephesians 2) by the will of God and not the will of Man (Romans 9).
• Therefore the grace offered at the Cross might be effective for some ... "whosoever believes", "all whom the father draws", "those the father has given" to the Son, whom God "foreknew" ... the "vessels of mercy".

 

If you notice, we all have our views about the way things come to be and how God brings it to be. But we are human beings and no matter what your philosophy or I guess it's called soteriology - there will come a point where we as humans have to interact with God as a rational creature. SBG in starting this thread has made a valid point in that we are asked to repent and believe and that is essential if we want to have any interest in God. By showing what Puritans and modern Calvinist preachers actually say when they preach he strikes a blow against anyone who is so into their philosophy that they feel they need to correct someone who says you need to repent and believe the gospel as if they are in error. I don't see any posts where this has been refuted. I'm glad he started this thread because I am a Calvinist and I think people need to be told to repent and believe the gospel. SBG is probably not a Calvinist and he believes you need to tell people to repent and believe the gospel. Now as to what motivates people and where the desire came from to repent and believe the gospel - we can go on in battle.

 

I don't think so, and you were wise not to try and prove your assertion. Let's look at the first two verses.
John 8:34-35. "Most assuredly I say to you, whoever sins is a slave [Gk. doulos] to sin. Therefore if the Son makes you free you shall be free indeed." Note here at once that we do not make ourselves free by exercising our 'God-given free will.'
Mark 3:27. "No one can enter a strong man's house and plunder his goods unless he first binds the strong man. And then he will plunder his house" (c.f. Luke 11:21-22 for greater detail). Satan is that strong man and he holds unsaved people in his power; they are his 'goods.' The Lord Jesus is that stronger man who has bound Satan inasmuch as He is able to ransack his house and free His people.

If you believe that I think this you have been paying no attention to post after post that I have made. Let me make it clear once more. NO-ONE IS SAVED UNLESS AND UNTIL HE BELIEVES!!!!! Have you got that? Please stop misrepresenting orthodox Calvinist beliefs.

Well it would be great if you quoted some Scripture! You keep saying how much you follow Scripture, but you post precious little of it and don't interact with what I post other than to say I'm wrong.

Jeremiah 13:23

Another rant with no Scripture to support it. The fact is that you don't trust what the Bible says and you simply take no notice of others when they actually post Scripture.

The Bible has two images of the unsaved: it says that non-believers are dead in sin and slaves to sin. That is why they need to be born anew and to be set free.

I don't know if you have ever read Treasure Island by Robert Louis Stevenson, but in that book Long John Silver has a parrot, and that parrot keeps on saying, "Dead men don't bite." That parrot knows more theology than you do. Dead men don't bite. They don't believe and they don't repent; they don't exercise their 'God-given free will. Why don't they do those things? Well, it has to do with them being dead, doesn't it? Now read Ephesians 2:1-10 with an open mind.

 

We calvinists do teach must repent and believe, but all of that comes form the Holy Spirit, nothing that we contribute to getting ourselves saved!

 

Faith and Repentance Inseparable
Charles Haddon Spurgeon
July 13, 1862

“ Repent ye, and believe the gospel.”— Mark 1:15


OUR Lord Jesus Christ commences his ministry by announcing its leading commands. He cometh up from the wilderness newly anointed, like the bridegroom from his chamber; his love notes are repentance and faith. He cometh forth fully prepared for his office, having been in the desert, “tempted in all points like as we are, yet without sin;” his loins are girded like a strong man to run a race. He preacheth with all the earnestness of a new zeal, combined with all the wisdom of a long preparation; in the beauty of holiness from the womb of the morning he glittereth with the dew of his youth. Hear, O heavens, and give ear, O earth, for Messias speaketh in the greatness of his strength. He crieth unto the sons of men, “Repent ye, and believe the gospel.” Let us give our ears to these words which, like their author, are full of grace and truth. Before us we have the sum and substance of Jesus Christ’s whole teaching— the Alpha and Omega of his entire ministry; and coming from the lips of such an one, at such a time, with such peculiar power, let us give the most earnest heed, and may God help us to obey them from our inmost hearts.

I. I shall commence by remarking that the gospel which Christ preached was, very plainly, a command. “Repent ye, and believe the gospel.” Our Lord does condescend to reason. Often his ministry graciously acted out the old text, “Come, now, and let us reason together; though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as wool.” He does persuade men by telling and forcible arguments, which should lead them to seek the salvation of their souls. He does invite men, and oh, how lovingly he woos them to be wise. “Come unto me all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.” He does entreat men; he condescendeth to become, as it were, a beggar to his own sinful creatures, beseeching them to come to him. Indeed, he maketh this to be the duty of his ministers, “As though God did beseech you by us, we pray you, in Christ’s stead, be ye reconciled to God.” Yet, remember, though he condescendeth to reason, to persuade, to invite, and to beseech, still his gospel hath in it all the dignity and force of a command; and if we would preach it in these days as Christ did, we must proclaim it as a command from God, attended with a divine sanction, and not to be neglected save at the infinite peril of the soul. When the feast was spread upon the table for the marriage-supper, there was an invitation, but it had all the obligation of a command, since those who rejected it were utterly destroyed as despisers of their king. When the builders reject Christ, he becomes a stone of stumbling to “the disobedient;” but how could they disobey if there were no command? The gospel contemplates, I say, invitations, entreaties, and beseechings, but it also takes the higher ground of authority. “Repent ye” is as much a command of God as “Thou shalt not steal. “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ” has as fully a divine authority as “Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, with all thy soul, and with all thy strength.” Think not, O men, that the gospel is a thing left to your option to choose it or not! Dream not, O sinners, that ye may despise the Word from heaven and incur no guilt! Think not that ye may neglect it and no ill consequences shall follow! It is just this neglect and despising of yours which shall fill up the measure of your iniquity. It is this concerning which we cry aloud, “How shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation!” God commands you to repent. The same God before whom Sinai was moved and was altogether on a smoke— that same God who proclaimed the law with sound of trumpet, with lightnings and with thunders, speaketh to us more gently, but still as divinely, through his only begotten Son, when he saith to us, “Repent ye, and believe the gospel.”

Why is this, dear friends; why has the Lord made it a command to us to believe in Christ? There is a blessed reason. Many souls would never venture to believe at all if it were not made penal to refuse to do so. For this is the difficulty with many awakened sinners: may I believe? Have I a right to believe? Am I permitted to trust Christ? Now this question is put aside, once for all, and should never irritate a broken heart again. You are commanded by God to do it, therefore you may do it. Every creature under heaven is commanded to believe in the Lord Jesus, and bow the knee at his name; every creature, wherever the Gospel comes, wherever the truth is preached, is commanded there and then to believe the gospel; and it is put in that shape, I say, lest any conscience-stricken sinner should question whether he may do it. Surely, you may do what God commands you to do. You may throw this in the devil’s teeth— “I may do it; I am bidden to do it by him who hath authority, and I am threatened if I do not with eternal damnation from his presence, for ‘he that believeth not shall be damned.’” This gives the sinner such a blessed permit, that whatever he may be or may not be, whatever he may have felt or may not have felt, he has a warrant which he may use whenever he is led to approach the cross. However benighted and darkened you may be, however hard-hearted and callous you may be, you have still a warrant to look to Jesus in the words, “Look unto me and be ye saved all ye ends of the earth.” He that commanded thee to believe will justify thee in believing; he cannot condemn thee for that which he himself bids thee do. But while there is this blessed reason for the gospel’s being a command, there is yet another solemn and an awful one. It is that men may be without excuse in the day of judgment; that no man may say at the last, “Lord, I did not know that I might believe in Christ; Lord, heaven’s gate was shut in my face; I was told that I might not come, that I was not the man.” “Nay,” saith the Lord, with tones of thunder, “the times of man’s ignorance I winked at, but in the gospel I commanded all men everywhere to repent; I sent my Son, and then I sent my apostles, and afterwards my ministers, and I bade them all make this the burden of their cry, ‘Repent and be converted everyone of you;’ and as Peter preached at Pentecost, so bade I them preach to thee. I bade them warn, exhort, and invite with all affection, but also to command with all authority, compelling you to come in, and inasmuch as you did not come at my command, you have added sin to sin; you have added the suicide of your own soul to all your other iniquities; and now, inasmuch as you did reject my Son, you shall have the portion of unbelievers, for ‘he that believeth not shall be damned.’” To all the nations of the earth, then, let us sound forth this decree from God. O men, Jehovah that made you, he who gives you the breath of your nostrils, he against whom you have offended, commands you this day to repent and believe the gospel. He gives his promise— “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;” and he adds the solemn threatening— “He that believeth not shall be damned.” I know some brethren will not like this, but that I cannot help. The slave of systems I will never be, for the Lord has loosed this iron bondage from my neck, and now I am the joyful servant of the truth which maketh free. Offend or please, as God shall help me, I will preach every truth as I learn it from the Word; and I know if there be anything written in the Bible at all it is written as with a sunbeam, that God in Christ commandeth men to repent, and believe the gospel. It is one of the saddest proofs of man’s utter depravity that he will not obey this command, but that he will despise Christ, and so make his doom worse than the doom of Sodom and Gomorrah. Without the regenerating work of God the Holy Ghost, no man ever will be obedient to this command, but still it must be published for a witness against them if they reject it; and while publishing God’s command with all simplicity, we may expect that he will divinely enforce it in the souls of those whom he has ordained unto eternal life.
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Just FYI, the opening of a sermon on Faith and Repentance from one Particular Baptist preacher.

 

Martin did I say that I make myself free? NO. So stop trying to put that on me. Read what I said >>someone that has heard the gospel message and then through his God given free will has repented and turned to Christ Jesus in faith.<< Your Calvinism is showing again. You only see what you want to see in a text.

And now Martin, you have changed you mind and agree that man has to believe before they are regenerated/born again/saved. In theology, new birth is by the grace of God; and the bible is quite clear that God showers us with His grace because we believe in His son Christ Jesus.

Martin you wrote >>Please stop misrepresenting orthodox Calvinist beliefs.<< When was the last time you looked at the Calvinist ordo salutis? The order of salvation it presents is 1] election 2] predestination 3] calling 4] regeneration 5] faith etc. So when the bible tells you that you have to believe before you are saved and you, Martin, say you have to be regenerated/born again/saved before you can believe why do you say that I am misrepresenting orthodox Calvinist beliefs? If memory serves you told me that one has to be regenerated before they are given faith to believe, correct me if I am wrong.

We are saved by God’s grace, and grace is appropriated by faith.

Rom 4:16
For this reason it is by faith, in order that it may be in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all,

And we see the same view presented here
Eph 2:4-5
But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
And we know that God saves those that believe.

Act 16:30-31
30 "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"
31 "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved,...”

Rom 1:16
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ,
for it is the power of God to salvation
for everyone who believes

Joh 3:14-15
14 “so must the Son of Man be lifted up
15 so that whoever believes
will in Him have eternal life

Rom 5:1
Therefore, having been justified by faith,
Rom 5:2
we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace

Martin you suggest that I should read Eph 2:1-10 well I would suggest you do the same. You should pay special attention to Eph 2:8 “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;” and might I suggest you also look at Rom 10:13-14 and in case you find that a bit confusing Rom 10:17 should clear it up for you.

Martin those of us that trust in the sovereign God do not try to limit what He can do.

I believe God is sovereign over His sovereignty and in His sovereignty He has decreed that man has the free will to trust in or reject Christ Jesus.

God is sovereign over his sovereignty.
To say that God can’t is, ironically, to deny God’s sovereignty.

 

Austin what I see is that you just do not really like to look at context. You will deny anything that does not fit into your little box.

Since you will just ignore whatever I say I thought you might listen to someone else. Enjoy

Charles Spurgeon on 1Ti_2:3-4
Salvation By Knowing the Truth,
The Metropolitan Tabernacle Pulpit, vol. 26
January 16th, 1880

What then? Shall we try to put another meaning into the text than that which it fairly bears? I trow not. You must, most of you, be acquainted with the general method in which our older Calvinistic friends deal with this text. “All men,” say they,—”that is, some men”: as if the Holy Ghost could not have said “some men” if he had meant some men. “All men,” say they; “that is, some of all sorts of men”: as if the Lord could not have said “all sorts of men” if he had meant that. The Holy Ghost by the apostle has written “all men,” and unquestionably he means all men. I know how to get rid of the force of the “alls” according to that critical method which some time ago was very current, but I do not see how it can be applied here with due regard to truth. I was reading just now the exposition of a very able doctor who explains the text so as to explain it away; he applies grammatical gunpowder to it, and explodes it by way of expounding it. I thought when I read his exposition that it would have been a very capital comment upon the text if it had read, “Who will not have all men to be saved, nor come to a knowledge of the truth.” […] My love of consistency with my own doctrinal views is not great enough to allow me knowingly to alter a single text of Scripture. […] So runs the text, and so we must read it, “God our Savior; who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.”
Does not the text mean that it is the wish of God that men should be saved? The word “wish” gives as much force to the original as it really requires, and the passage should run thus—”whose wish it is that all men should be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth.” As it is my wish that it should be so, as it is your wish that it might be so, so it is God’s wish that all men should be saved; for, assuredly, he is not less benevolent than we are..

 

System would not let me post with the text from Spurgeon but you can see it at post # 92

I included the above quotes from the sermon by CHS to give some context to what follows.

CHS pointed to the marriage feast Mat 22:2-14 and used these words “it had all the obligation of a command, since those who rejected it were utterly destroyed as despisers of their king” Mat 22:3 they were not willing to come. Mat 22:5 But they made light of it and went their ways. Here once again we see a free will in action. Does that mean that those who reject the command of God will escape judgment? NO Mat 22:7

CHS then asks an important question. “why has the Lord made it a command to us to believe in Christ?” and then he provides an answer “Many souls would never venture to believe at all if it were not made penal to refuse to do so.” Once again we see choice on display here.

Now here is a comment by CHS that for someone who holds to free will will presents no problem but for someone who holds to a divine determinism view it would. “You are commanded by God to do it, therefore you may do it.” For the determinist the fact that God has command something does not allow for choice, that is if the Calvinist is going to be consistent with their view. For those that hold to the free will view this comment poses no problem. Example; we have a law that says we can only drive up to the posted speed and that there is a penalty if we exceed it and yet we know that many people do in fact choose to exceed that posted limit while others will abide by the law. The same can be said of Gods’ command to repent and believe the gospel, we know that many do in fact choose to disregard that command while others will freely repent and believe the gospel message. That is just free will in action.

CHS added a comment that supports what I have just said “I may do it; I am bidden to do it by him who hath authority, and I am threatened if I do not with eternal damnation from his presence, for ‘he that believeth not shall be damned.’”

And here we see another comment that causes problems for those of the Calvinist view. >>But while there is this blessed reason for the gospel’s being a command, there is yet another solemn and an awful one. It is that men may be without excuse in the day of judgment; that no man may say at the last, “Lord, I did not know that I might believe in Christ;<< If indeed man does not have a free will then via the Calvinist view it is only those that have been pre selected by God that can believe so all those that are left without hope will have a valid excuse, I was not one of the pre selected so was condemned before time began.

But the Calvinist view flies in the face of scripture which say God wants all to come to a saving knowledge and to be saved. 1Ti 2:3-4 But even then not all will repent and trust God will they. Again free will.
That the reason why sinners are not saved lies in the will. “The only reason why sinners die is because ‘they will not come’ to Christ for life and happiness: it is not because they ‘cannot,’ but because they ‘will not’” (Henry) from Barnes cmtx Joh 5:40

While CHS was a Particular Baptist preacher, and a good one, you still find in his sermons the free will of man in regard to his own salvation.

 

I certainly hope that my Calvinism is showing! Otherwise I'm wasting my time.
Someone who hears the Gospel message and then 'through his God-given free will has repented and believed' is saving himself. QED. What do the Scriptures say? Read Acts of the Apostles 13:48; Acts of the Apostles 16:15; Ephesians 2:4-6; Titus 3:4-7 etc.

Once again you prove that either you don't read anything I write or you don't understand it. You wrote

This is utterly false. I have never ever said such a thing. Now you are conflating regeneration with salvation. They are not the same thing. God opens the heart of the sinner who is dead in trespasses and sins, giving him new life so that he can (freely and of his own free will) believe the Gospel. When he repents and trusts in Christ, God justifies him; that is, He declares him righteous. It is at that point that he is saved.

Exactly so, but what is the 'etcetera'? It is justification and glorification. Orthodox Calvinists do not believe that anyone is saved until he believes. So this renders all the Bible verses you have quoted moot since we both believe them.

I have had enough of this discussion. I am finding it an irritation, so I think it best if I leave it here. But PLEASE! Take the trouble to understand what Calvinists like Spurgeon believe before you post. Otherwise you are like a monkey playing with a watch.

 

you missed CHS' last point in that post ...

Therein lies the biblical paradox that Spurgeon refused to reject in favor of our modern "sound bite" simplifications.

• God offers Salvation to all. (John 3)
  
• All freely choose to reject His salvation. (Romans 3)
  
• God empowers some to obedience. (Ephesians 2)

 

“Someone who hears the Gospel message and then 'through his God-given free will has repented and believed' is saving himself“


This constant drum beat is false, has never been proven, and fails to understand both what a gift is and how merit works.

 

I agree the drum beat of "free will" is false and has never been proven in scripture. In fact the Bible is clear that humans have no capacity to be free. They are either slaves to sin (Satan) or slaves to Christ Jesus. But, humans are never free. Thus, never is our will free to do whatever we please. Reading Romans and Galatians will help clear up the false notion of free will.

 

You know. It seems like "free will" is the big issue really. If all you mean by free will is that you do what you want to do at the time the choice came up then yes you have free will. But if you believe by free will that God at some point gave everyone an equal thing called "free will" and so everyone is now equipped equally and from that - you and only you must decide to come to Christ or not with no further influence allowed to be put on you even by God himself - well then that just ain't right. I'd read Spurgeon's defense of Calvinism, I think it was written in 1897 and he himself explains this. I'm afraid sometimes that the Puritan writings sound confusing to us because we think like modern men and they lived in a world where you didn't leave a job, church was mandatory, sticking close to your church doctrine was a matter of survival - free will as we think of it was unknown to them. Spurgeon came much later ( he was still preaching when my grandma was born), and his thought patterns seem more familiar.