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Belief not a gift

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RipponRedeaux

Well-Known Member
SavedByGrace said:
This is the way that the reformed pervert what people say. It is the WARPED theology that I question because it is thoroughly UNBIBLICAL
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Answer Yes or No to the following propositions :

God is Holy
Everything that God does is perfect
All of humanity is sinful
All of humanity deserves eternal condemnation
God shows mercy to whomever he wants to
God hardens whomever he wants to
As sinful humans we have absolutely no right whatsoever to question anything God does or states in the Scriptures.
 
SavedByGrace

SavedByGrace

Well-Known Member
RipponRedeaux said:
Answer Yes or No to the following propositions :

God is Holy
Everything that God does is perfect
All of humanity is sinful
All of humanity deserves eternal condemnation
God shows mercy to whomever he wants to
God hardens whomever he wants to
As sinful humans we have absolutely no right whatsoever to question anything God does or states in the Scriptures.
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Why don't you guys give what all the Scriptures say rather than passages that you think support your theology.

Romans 11.32 in context is very clear that God has concluded the whole human race, which is both Jews and Gentiles in sin, so that He MIGHT have mercy upon ALL.

This is the True Bible Gospel and not the theology of the so called "reformed"
 
DaveXR650

DaveXR650

Well-Known Member
Revmitchell said:
Here is where i have a problem with reformed theology on this matter. You say drawing with the HS but leave out scripture. Youre not alone every reformed person i have talked to does it. Its not the HS that does the drawing it is the gospel.
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You have correctly noticed that there are various degrees of "reformed". The drawing of the HS affects the person by conviction and by him realizing that the gospel is true and that he is in jeopardy if he doesn't come to Christ. The means to do this IS God's word, from preaching or reading the Bible.

Now, I assume you are some form of regular Baptist or fundamental Baptist. I was too. You know we pray for people to get saved. What are we doing? We are asking God to intervene in their lives either by convincing them or by arranging circumstances to help them get saved. We are assuming that this intervention is necessary or the person will not be saved. In that case the grace or intervention was essential, was it not? Something happened that would not have happened had the HS not acted.

Now here's the differences. The non-reformed Baptist believes that this grace can be resisted. I believe as I explained above that by definition if it can be resisted then it was not the intervention you prayed for. Reformed people do believe that the grace can be resisted - but not in the ones who get saved - or they wouldn't have gotten saved. For those folks, the grace was overcoming.

Now, if you "decide" to believe as I have described above, do you not see how you can say your faith was a gift? You wouldn't have believed without the HS. Otherwise, why pray for folks - they're gonna have to decide on their own.

I believe in addition, that there are enough verses that show that the work of the HS is MORE than conviction and convincing. I believe there is an enlightening or regeneration (being born again) that really does occur. And I believe it was planned by God. I know that a lot of non-reformed people believe that you come by faith and then get born again. I believe it's the other way around.

Like I said earlier, "Reformed" or Calvinist takes in a wide range of belief. Some are so into the facts of God's sovereignty that they forget that even if salvation is all of God - the elect person is a rational being and there has to be an intelligent interaction between the two parties or it has no meaning. You actually have to believe. Some even say you are justified before being created if you are elect. Other like Spurgeon, Bonar, a group of Puritans called the Marrow men, describe salvation in much more interactive terms that you as a Baptist would be familiar with.
 
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RipponRedeaux

Well-Known Member
Revmitchell said:
And no just because something is said to be given is not evidence that it is imposed in the sense that reformed folks believe it is.
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The above is a mysterious statement. To impose is to be endured --to be thrust upon someone like a penalty. The Lord does not impose his gift of saving faith. To be sure, he intercedes on the behalf of those he chooses. But the word 'imposed' is not something any Reformed scholar, or any Reformed layperson here has ever said or implied.
 
SavedByGrace

SavedByGrace

Well-Known Member
RipponRedeaux said:
The above is a mysterious statement. To impose is to be endured --to be thrust upon someone like a penalty. The Lord does not impose his gift of saving faith. To be sure, he intercedes on the behalf of those he chooses. But the word 'imposed' is not something any Reformed scholar, or any Reformed layperson here has ever said or implied.
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More reformed theology rather than what the Bible actually says :rolleyes:
 
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RipponRedeaux

Well-Known Member
SavedByGrace said:
More reformed theology rather than what the Bible actually says :rolleyes:
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You are not making any sense. Do you think that the Reformed believe that God has imposed himself on people of his choosing? If so, do some citations.
As I said, we believe that the Lord intercedes on our behalf.
 
SavedByGrace

SavedByGrace

Well-Known Member
RipponRedeaux said:
You are not making any sense. Do you think that the Reformed believe that God has imposed himself on people of his choosing? If so, do some citations.
As I said, we believe that the Lord intercedes on our behalf.
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The main problem with your theology is that you limit the Saving Love of God to the elect only. But John 3.16 is very clear that this Love is universal to everyone without exception. This is crux of the issue
 
Reformed1689

Reformed1689

Well-Known Member
SavedByGrace said:
The main problem with your theology is that you limit the Saving Love of God to the elect only. But John 3.16 is very clear that this Love is universal to everyone without exception. This is crux of the issue
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It does not say universal without exception, you are writing things into a passage that are not there.
 
R

RipponRedeaux

Well-Known Member
SavedByGrace said:
As I have said many times, it is the reformed system on salvation that is faulty and unbiblical
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You are a hard-headed one. Why shy away from answering the seven propositions? If you have sincere convictions than surely you could answer the seven without feeling queasy about it. Do you feel I have backed you up to a corner or something? All true Christians should show their actual colors and not step away from such fundamental questions.
 
SavedByGrace

SavedByGrace

Well-Known Member
Reformed1689 said:
Just keep digging the holes, just keep digging the holes, stupidity abounds, just keep digging the holes.
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Here is a stupid question for you.

WHY does God need to DRAG and FORCE the elect when they have already been CHOSEN for salvation???

This whole system is very much UNBIBLICAL
 
V

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
canadyjd said:
Everyone has already chosen “not to believe” by rejecting God’s revelation of Himself in creation. Everyone stands condemned for that rejection.

That God choses some for salvation and draws them into that relationship is a testament of His mercy and grace.

peace to you
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I missed how we make God a liar if we are unable to believe. The action of rejection is in view. And why would God ask us to believe, if He had made us unable to believe. On and on folks, the claim of Calvinism is bogus...
 
SavedByGrace

SavedByGrace

Well-Known Member
RipponRedeaux said:
You are a hard-headed one. Why shy away from answering the seven propositions? If you have sincere convictions than surely you could answer the seven without feeling queasy about it. Do you feel I have backed you up to a corner or something? All true Christians should show their actual colors and not step away from such fundamental questions.
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I will keep on asking you guys the same question until you can answer from the Bible.

Show from John 3.16 that God's Saving Love is only for the elect. This verse destroys most of reformed teaching
 
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