Atonement Continued

[agedman]

Dude it is very clear that you don't even understand what PSA is

ok, then present it.

Show where it differs from Substitution, Satisfaction, Moral, and Victorious just to name a few.

If you are going to claim we have no understanding, then you as the intelligent one need to explain and defend it.

For, so far, what has been presented in defense has been soundly shown unscriptural.

 

[canadyjd]

….
The problem with that is that NOBODY is claiming that Christ did not suffer! We are asking for verses that indicate:

1. God PUNISHED Christ.
2. Christ suffered OUR PUNISHMENT from God.……

You should not need to "read between the lines" for something that important.

I’d like to pursue this line of thought, if that’s ok? Step by step.

First, I’d like to look at the fall and the idea of punishment verses consequence. Is physical death a punishment from God for the sin of Adam? I don’t think so. Rather, I see physical death as a consequence, not punishment, of the fall, along with the “thorns and thistles” and the strained relationship between a man and wife.

The “punishment” for the fall is separation from God. Adam and Eve are cast out of the garden and a sacrificial system put into place that temporarily restores the relationship with God, as seen by Abel’s offering.

Can we agree on this?

peace to you

 

[agedman]

I’d like to pursue this line of thought, if that’s ok? Step by step.

First, I’d like to look at the fall and the idea of punishment verses consequence. Is physical death a punishment from God for the sin of Adam? I don’t think so. Rather, I see physical death as a consequence, not punishment, of the fall, along with the “thorns and thistles” and the strained relationship between a man and wife.

The “punishment” for the fall is separation from God. Adam and Eve are cast out of the garden and a sacrificial system put into place that temporarily restores the relationship with God, as seen by Abel’s offering.

Can we agree on this?

peace to you

what was the single difference the decision by Adam to rebel against God brought?

physical death.

The Scriptures teach that the time prior to the Law as exampled by Gentiles:

14Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law.
15So they show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts either accusing or defending them 16on the day when God will judge men’s secrets through Christ Jesus, as proclaimed by my gospel.​

And in Galatians:

15Brothers, let me put this in human terms. Even a human covenant, once it is ratified, cannot be canceled or amended. 16The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say, “and to seeds,” meaning many, but “and to your seed,” meaning One, who is Christ. 17What I mean is this: The law that came 430 years later does not revoke the covenant previously established by God, so as to nullify the promise. 18For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on a promise; but God freely granted it to Abraham through a promise.

19Why then was the law given? It was added because of transgressions, until the arrival of the seed to whom the promise referred. It was administered through angels by a mediator. 20A mediator is unnecessary, however, for only one party; but God is one. 21Is the law, then, opposed to the promises of God? Certainly not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come from the law. 22But the Scripture pronounces all things confined by sin, so that by faith in Jesus Christ the promise might be given to those who believe. 23Before this faith came, we were held in custody under the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. 24So the law became our guardian to lead us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25Now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.
​

These verses show the pattern that the Law is the bindings and the breaking of the decrees by humanity could only be temporarily reconciled under the provision of the Law.

Paul stood at the acropolis and gave these words concerning the time from Adam to Moses and on to the Christ.

24The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples made by human hands. 25Nor is He served by human hands, as if He needed anything, because He Himself gives everyone life and breath and everything else. 26From one man He made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and He determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their lands. 27God intended that they would seek Him and perhaps reach out for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us. 28‘For in Him we live and move and have our being. As some of your own poets have said, ‘We are His offspring.’ 29Therefore, being offspring of God, we should not think that the Divine Being is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by man’s skill and imagination. 30Although God overlooked the ignorance of earlier times, He now commands all people everywhere to repent. 31For He has set a day when He will judge the world with justice by the Man He has appointed. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising Him from the dead.”​

There is only one specific place death refers to the lake of fire. That is the second death.

Other then that, the Jews knew physical death followed by judgement, and the torments of what we call hell and the rest in paradise.

Remember, they had the thinking of a resurrection not to heaven but to the kingdom, and Christ introduced them to a “place prepared for them” in the Father’s realm.

So death was physical followed by judgement.

But the “second death” is not mentioned until the Revelations.

 

[atpollard]

"Surely he has borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. But he was wounded FOR OUR transgressions, he was bruised FOR OUR iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was on him; and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned, each one to his own way; and Jehovah has laid on Him the iniquity of us all. He was oppressed, and He was afflicted; yet He opened not His mouth. He is brought as a lamb to the slaughter; and as a sheep before its shearers is dumb, so He opened not His mouth...Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he has put him to grief: when you shall make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand" Isaiah 53:4, 5-7, 10)

It is very clear that Jesus Christ is here "SMITTEN of God, and AFFLICTED".

Actually it says ... "Surely he has borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted."

Can you not see that it does not SAY that he actually WAS punished (stricken, smitten, afflicted) BY GOD, only that WE THOUGHT that he was.

So all it says for certain is "it pleased the LORD to bruise him" ... which was never in question. Jesus said that HIMSELF in John 10:18.

We all acknowledge that Christ was oppressed. ... Did GOD oppress Him?
We all acknowledge that Christ died for OUR SINS. ... Was that OUR PUNISHMENT?

I know it seems pedantic, but people are claiming to KNOW the motivation behind the mind of God ... the WHY for the actions on the Cross. Something that vitally important should be clearly proven in scripture, not eisegetically read retroactively between the lines into every verse that says Jesus suffered.

So SAY what can be said from the verses that you chose:

"Surely he has borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. But he was wounded FOR OUR transgressions, he was bruised FOR OUR iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was on him; and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned, each one to his own way; and Jehovah has laid on Him the iniquity of us all. He was oppressed, and He was afflicted; yet He opened not His mouth. He is brought as a lamb to the slaughter; and as a sheep before its shearers is dumb, so He opened not His mouth. (Isaiah 53:4-7)​

He (Jesus) :

• has borne our griefs
• carried our sorrows
• was wounded for our transgressions
• was bruised for our iniquities
• the chastisement of our peace was on him
• with his stripes we are healed
• Jehovah has laid on Him the iniquity of us all
• was oppressed
• was afflicted
• is brought as a lamb to the slaughter
  

(I skipped verse 10 because I value context and do not trust verses without their neighbors.)

Isaiah is clear on the WHAT, but it DOES NOT present the message I was always taught that GOD PLACED THE PUNISHMENT THAT I DESERVED ONTO JESUS CHRIST IN MY PLACE. It says that God laid my guilt and sin on Christ and it says that Christ suffered because of my sin ... but it does not say that God transferred my punishment to Christ. That message just isn't there. So I am still left wondering about the WHY, because God didn't say what people claim God said.

 

[JesusFan]

I understand what you are saying. I was there myself for most of my life.

I am not saying that God did not lead you to your understanding. I think God leads us in directions to help us grow, but then we continue to grow.

We hold a worldview that lends itself to Penal Substitution Theory. But at some point I do believe we need to move on to a more biblical understanding.

There is a difference between saying Christ did something for us and saying this means He was our substitute.

It was difficult for me to understand initially. But it is really simple (perhaps this is why we find it so difficult). Just try reading Scripture for exactly what is in the text.

Psa is the normal reading and understanding of the Scriptures though, in regards to Pauline Justification, and your view is the novel one!

 

[JesusFan]

Actually it says ... "Surely he has borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted."

Can you not see that it does not SAY that he actually WAS punished (stricken, smitten, afflicted) BY GOD, only that WE THOUGHT that he was.

So all it says for certain is "it pleased the LORD to bruise him" ... which was never in question. Jesus said that HIMSELF in John 10:18.

We all acknowledge that Christ was oppressed. ... Did GOD oppress Him?
We all acknowledge that Christ died for OUR SINS. ... Was that OUR PUNISHMENT?

I know it seems pedantic, but people are claiming to KNOW the motivation behind the mind of God ... the WHY for the actions on the Cross. Something that vitally important should be clearly proven in scripture, not eisegetically read retroactively between the lines into every verse that says Jesus suffered.

So SAY what can be said from the verses that you chose:

"Surely he has borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. But he was wounded FOR OUR transgressions, he was bruised FOR OUR iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was on him; and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned, each one to his own way; and Jehovah has laid on Him the iniquity of us all. He was oppressed, and He was afflicted; yet He opened not His mouth. He is brought as a lamb to the slaughter; and as a sheep before its shearers is dumb, so He opened not His mouth. (Isaiah 53:4-7)​

He (Jesus) :

• has borne our griefs
• carried our sorrows
• was wounded for our transgressions
• was bruised for our iniquities
• the chastisement of our peace was on him
• with his stripes we are healed
• Jehovah has laid on Him the iniquity of us all
• was oppressed
• was afflicted
• is brought as a lamb to the slaughter

(I skipped verse 10 because I value context and do not trust verses without their neighbors.)

Isaiah is clear on the WHAT, but it DOES NOT present the message I was always taught that GOD PLACED THE PUNISHMENT THAT I DESERVED ONTO JESUS CHRIST IN MY PLACE. It says that God laid my guilt and sin on Christ and it says that Christ suffered because of my sin ... but it does not say that God transferred my punishment to Christ. That message just isn't there. So I am still left wondering about the WHY, because God didn't say what people claim God said.

What was that Cup that Jesus drank from then, that caused him to be forsaken while upon that Cross by the father?

 

[JesusFan]

what was the single difference the decision by Adam to rebel against God brought?

physical death.

The Scriptures teach that the time prior to the Law as exampled by Gentiles:

14Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law.
15So they show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts either accusing or defending them 16on the day when God will judge men’s secrets through Christ Jesus, as proclaimed by my gospel.​

And in Galatians:

15Brothers, let me put this in human terms. Even a human covenant, once it is ratified, cannot be canceled or amended. 16The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say, “and to seeds,” meaning many, but “and to your seed,” meaning One, who is Christ. 17What I mean is this: The law that came 430 years later does not revoke the covenant previously established by God, so as to nullify the promise. 18For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on a promise; but God freely granted it to Abraham through a promise.

19Why then was the law given? It was added because of transgressions, until the arrival of the seed to whom the promise referred. It was administered through angels by a mediator. 20A mediator is unnecessary, however, for only one party; but God is one. 21Is the law, then, opposed to the promises of God? Certainly not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come from the law. 22But the Scripture pronounces all things confined by sin, so that by faith in Jesus Christ the promise might be given to those who believe. 23Before this faith came, we were held in custody under the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. 24So the law became our guardian to lead us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25Now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.
​

These verses show the pattern that the Law is the bindings and the breaking of the decrees by humanity could only be temporarily reconciled under the provision of the Law.

Paul stood at the acropolis and gave these words concerning the time from Adam to Moses and on to the Christ.

24The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples made by human hands. 25Nor is He served by human hands, as if He needed anything, because He Himself gives everyone life and breath and everything else. 26From one man He made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and He determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their lands. 27God intended that they would seek Him and perhaps reach out for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us. 28‘For in Him we live and move and have our being. As some of your own poets have said, ‘We are His offspring.’ 29Therefore, being offspring of God, we should not think that the Divine Being is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by man’s skill and imagination. 30Although God overlooked the ignorance of earlier times, He now commands all people everywhere to repent. 31For He has set a day when He will judge the world with justice by the Man He has appointed. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising Him from the dead.”​

There is only one specific place death refers to the lake of fire. That is the second death.

Other then that, the Jews knew physical death followed by judgement, and the torments of what we call hell and the rest in paradise.

Remember, they had the thinking of a resurrection not to heaven but to the kingdom, and Christ introduced them to a “place prepared for them” in the Father’s realm.

So death was physical followed by judgement.

But the “second death” is not mentioned until the Revelations.

Adam and Eve and all of us died Spiritually before physically though!

 

[SavedByGrace]

Can you not see that it does not SAY that he actually WAS punished (stricken, smitten, afflicted) BY GOD, only that WE THOUGHT that he was

well, if we were to accept the English, maybe so. But the Hebrew verb חשׁב actually means here, "to think, to take to be so and so, account". The same verb is used in Malachi 3:16, "Then they that feared the LORD spake often one to another: and the LORD hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the LORD, and that thought (חשׁב) upon His Name". Are you saying that those who feared the Lord, did not actually THINK on His Name?

 

[JesusFan]

well, if we were to accept the English, maybe so. But the Hebrew verb חשׁב actually means here, "to think, to take to be so and so, account". The same verb is used in Malachi 3:16, "Then they that feared the LORD spake often one to another: and the LORD hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the LORD, and that thought (חשׁב) upon His Name". Are you saying that those who feared the Lord, did not actually THINK on His Name?

Think that the Father was active in what happen upon that Cross, was not passive nor was it just Jesus died due to evil world, Rome, or sinners period!

 

[percho]

It is very clear to me.

The wages of sin, death.

Jesus born of the virgin Mary was without sin. He was not brought forth in iniquity nor did Mary his mother conceive him in sin.

At about the age of thirty three years Jesus born of the virgin Mary, the sinless one, was nailed to a tree (stake) therefore made of God the Father of him, sin, cursed of God the Father of him and Jesus the Son of the Living God cried out;

Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

And then;

'Father, to Thy hands I commit my spirit;' and these things having said, he breathed forth the spirit. --------- The very, life being, of
the one cursed hanging on a tree (stake) returned to the Father of him.

For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for (over, for the sake of) our sins according to the Scriptures,

Question.
Did Jesus having had the sins of us laid on himself and dismissing the life of himself unto the hands of his Father give life unto us?

It reconciled us to God but did it give us life? Born again life?

and if Christ hath not risen, vain is your faith, ye are yet in your sins; 1 Cor 15:17


in behalf of Christ, then, we are ambassadors, as if God were calling through us, we beseech, in behalf of Christ, 'Be ye reconciled to God;'
for him who did not know sin, in our behalf He did make sin, that we may become the righteousness of God in him. 2 Cor 5:20,21

Is the, righteousness of God, the giving of spirit life, to the dead Christ, who had come in the flesh with the soul of the flesh being in the blood?

Acts 3:14 NKJV But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you;
Acts 3:14 YLT and ye the Holy and Righteous One did deny, and desired a man -- a murderer -- to be granted to you,

That One, DIED, over our sins.

“Behold, as for the proud one,
His soul is not right within him;
But the righteous will live by his [fn]faith. Hab 2:4 NASB94

Question is that verse about the DEAD Christ the Just (righteous) One made to be sin? How will he live?

Consider:
Paul, an apostle -- not from men, nor through man, but through Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who did raise him out of the dead -- Gal 1:1 YLT
and if Christ hath not risen, vain is your faith, ye are yet in your sins; 1 Cor 15:17

 

[canadyjd]

what was the single difference the decision by Adam to rebel against God brought?

physical death.

The Scriptures teach that the time prior to the Law as exampled by Gentiles:

14Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law.
15So they show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts either accusing or defending them 16on the day when God will judge men’s secrets through Christ Jesus, as proclaimed by my gospel.​

And in Galatians:

15Brothers, let me put this in human terms. Even a human covenant, once it is ratified, cannot be canceled or amended. 16The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say, “and to seeds,” meaning many, but “and to your seed,” meaning One, who is Christ. 17What I mean is this: The law that came 430 years later does not revoke the covenant previously established by God, so as to nullify the promise. 18For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on a promise; but God freely granted it to Abraham through a promise.

19Why then was the law given? It was added because of transgressions, until the arrival of the seed to whom the promise referred. It was administered through angels by a mediator. 20A mediator is unnecessary, however, for only one party; but God is one. 21Is the law, then, opposed to the promises of God? Certainly not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come from the law. 22But the Scripture pronounces all things confined by sin, so that by faith in Jesus Christ the promise might be given to those who believe. 23Before this faith came, we were held in custody under the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. 24So the law became our guardian to lead us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25Now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.
​

These verses show the pattern that the Law is the bindings and the breaking of the decrees by humanity could only be temporarily reconciled under the provision of the Law.

Paul stood at the acropolis and gave these words concerning the time from Adam to Moses and on to the Christ.

24The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples made by human hands. 25Nor is He served by human hands, as if He needed anything, because He Himself gives everyone life and breath and everything else. 26From one man He made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and He determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their lands. 27God intended that they would seek Him and perhaps reach out for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us. 28‘For in Him we live and move and have our being. As some of your own poets have said, ‘We are His offspring.’ 29Therefore, being offspring of God, we should not think that the Divine Being is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by man’s skill and imagination. 30Although God overlooked the ignorance of earlier times, He now commands all people everywhere to repent. 31For He has set a day when He will judge the world with justice by the Man He has appointed. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising Him from the dead.”​

There is only one specific place death refers to the lake of fire. That is the second death.

Other then that, the Jews knew physical death followed by judgement, and the torments of what we call hell and the rest in paradise.

Remember, they had the thinking of a resurrection not to heaven but to the kingdom, and Christ introduced them to a “place prepared for them” in the Father’s realm.

So death was physical followed by judgement.

But the “second death” is not mentioned until the Revelations.

Please keep focused on the questions of “consequence” and “punishment”. No one denies death entered by sin.

I believe death is the consequence of sin. Separation from God is the punishment for sin.

If we understand that the punishment for sin is separation from God, we may better understand the role of the “sacrifice” in restoring, temporarily, the spiritual relationship with God, that is acceptable worship.

The sacrifice, the killing of the animal symbolizes the permanent separation sin causes, fulfilling the punishment aspect of sin, allowing the person to be restored, temporarily, to spiritual fellowship with God.

Do you wish to discuss this?

peace to you

 

[Martin Marprelate]

First of all I want to repeat what I have said many times. We must never imagine that God the Father imposed upon the Son any burden that He was unwilling to bear. On the contrary, He declares, “I delight to do Your will, O My God….” (Psalms 40:8; Hebrews 10:7; c.f. John 4:34; 6:38). Nor should we imagine that on the cross, the Son extracted from the Father a mercy that He was unwilling to give (John 3:16; Romans 5:8). On the contrary, on the cross, ‘Mercy and truth have met together; righteousness and peace have kissed’ (Psalms 85:10).

We should now consider the various references to the Lord Jesus drinking a cup. In Mark 10:38, He asks James and John, “Are you able to drink the cup that I drink and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with?” and in John 18:11, “Shall I not drink the cup which My Father has given Me?” Then in Gethsamene, ‘deeply distressed and troubled’ Mark 14:33), He cries out to the Father, “O My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; nevertheless, not as I will but as You will” (Matthew 26:39, 42 etc.), It is clear that this cup is something horrific which the Father requires Him to drink. He knows all about it, has willingly (see above) agreed to drink it, but as the cup approaches, He is filled with dread and horror at the anticipation of it.

We read (Luke 22:43) that God sent an angel to 'strengthen Him.' I would love to know exactly what that angel said or did, but it didn't make the bad stuff go away. On the contrary, 'And being in agony, He prayed more earnestly.' Is this our Lord and Saviour horrified and bewildered at what was coming to Him? Yes! On an night when it was cold enough for a fire to be kindled in the courtyard of the high priest’s house (Luke 22:55), the Lord Jesus sweats copiously (Luke 22:44)– the psychosomatic response of a human to impending trauma.

So what is this cup which the Lord Jesus must drink, but the consumption of which He so dreaded? The O.T. tells us; it is a cup of judgement and wrath against the wicked. ‘For in the hand of the LORD there is a cup, and the wine is red; it is fully mixed, and He pours it out; surely its dregs shall all the wicked of the earth drain down and drink’ (Psalm 75:8). ‘For thus says the LORD GOD of Israel to me, “Take this wine cup from My hand and cause all the nations, to whom I send you to drink it. And they will drink and stagger and go mad because of the sword I will send among them……..”‘ (Jeremiah 25:15-32).

As one reads on, it becomes clear that this judgement is for the whole world to drink. See also Isaiah 51:17; Ezekiel 23:32-34; Habakkuk 2:16). So why should the Lord Jesus drink this cup? Mark 10:45 tells us, He came, ‘To give His life as a ransom for many;’ to drink the cup destined for sinners in their place. “Behold, we are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be betrayed {lit. ‘handed over.’ Gk. paradidomai) to the chief priests and to the scribes; and the will condemn Him to death and deliver [Gk. paradidomai] Him to the Gentiles [lit. ‘nations.’ Gk. ethnoi], and they will mock Him and scourge Him, and spit on Him, and kill Him. And the third day He will rise again.’

Now compare with Psalm 106:40-41. ‘Therefore the wrath of the LORD was kindled against His people, so that He abhorred His own inheritance. And He gave them [LXX paradidomai] into the hand of the Gentiles [or ‘nations’] and those who hated them ruled over them.’ So for our Lord Jesus to be handed over to the nations is tantamount to being delivered over to God’s wrath. Christ gave His life as a ransom for many, being handed over to God’s wrath in the place of many. The ransom is, of course, not money, but a life being given up in death, and pain being suffered in the place of others who would otherwise suffer the pains of hell.

[For much of the last two paragraphs I have drawn on Pierced for our Transgressions by Jeffrey, Ovey and Sach (IVP, 2007. ISBN 978-1-84474-178-6)]

 

[Martin Marprelate]

[continued]
So now we can look at our Lord’s cry of dereliction. ‘Now when the sixth hour had come, there was darkness over the whole land until the sixth hour. And at the ninth hour, Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying “Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?” Which is translated, “My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?”‘ (Mark 15:33-34).

We will first look at the supernatural darkness that came over the land. There are several places in the O.T. where darkness denotes God’s wrath and judgement, especially connected to the ‘day of the Lord,’ e.g. Joel 2:31; Amos 5:18-20; Zephaniah 1:14-15 and particularly Isaiah 13:9-11 (quoted in Mark 13:24-25). so the darkness indicates the righteous anger of God, but against whom? The Lord Jesus Himself tells us that it is against Himself as the sin-bearer. ‘Then Jesus said to them, “All of you will be made to stumble because of Me this night, for it is written, ‘I will strike the Shepherd, and the sheep will be scattered'”‘ (Mark 14:27). The quotation is from Zechariah 13:7 and makes it perfectly clear that God Himself is the One who will strike the Shepherd. The Lord Jesus was made sin, and God’s righteous anger against sin was poured out upon Him instead of us, with His full knowledge and consent.

We now come to the dereliction of Christ. As I have said elsewhere, I cannot possibly accept that “My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me” can possibly be read as “My God, My God, You haven’t forsaken Me.” Nor can I accept that David, who is described as a prophet in Acts 2:30, was actually a false prophet in that he made an error in Psalm 22:1 (c.f. Deuteronomy 18:20-22). Nor is it a case of ‘God forsaking God’ any more than God prays to God (e.g. John 17). The Son prays to the Father, although the Father does not pray to the Son, and on the cross, the Father temporarily forsakes the Son.

I know that some people find this hard to accept, but it must be true because the Holy Spirit has preserved His words for us. “My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me? Why are You so far from helping Me, and from the words of My groaning? O My God, I cry in the daytime, but You do not hear; and in the night season, and am not silent” (Psalms 22:1-2). Although it was 3 o’clock in the afternoon, it was the ‘night season’ for darkness had fallen upon the land, as if to hide the shame of the God-man made sin. For those hours, as a Man, He was quite literally God-forsaken. To be sure, we need to be careful here. We must not suggest that the Father was not present at Calvary for the very good reason that He is Omni-present. ‘”Do I not fill heaven and earth?” Declares the LORD’ (Jeremiah 23:23-24; c.f. Psalms 139:7-12). Rather it means that the Son, who had enjoyed the constant and closest possible relationship with His Father, now lacked completely any sense of His presence until the sun appeared once more and He cried, “It is finished!” The Greek word tetelestai can also mean, ‘It is paid’ (c.f. Matthew 17:14) or ‘it is accomplished (c.f. Luke 9:31). In fact, our Lord’s cry meant all those things. The ransom was paid in full, reconciliation between Man and God was accomplished, and His suffering was about to be ended. This agrees with Psalms 22:21b; 'You have answered Me.' The Father heard the Son's cry and deemed that atonement had been made

This forsaking of Christ is an integral part of the atonement. Christ ‘is able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him.’ His is a complete salvation. I shall not be condemned for my sins because Christ was made sin for me. I shall not suffer the pains of hell because Christ has suffered them on my behalf on the cross. I shall not be shut out from the presence of God (2 Thessalonians 1:9) because Christ was shut out from the felt presence of His Father on my behalf.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Can you not see that it does not SAY that he actually WAS punished (stricken, smitten, afflicted) BY GOD, only that WE THOUGHT that he was.

I do not believe that you are reading the verse correctly.
'We' were quite right in our estimation. The verse doesn't say that 'we' weren't and verse 10 says that we were. Where 'we' were wrong was that 'we' didn't realise the reason why Christ was smitten and afflicted. It was for us, and verse 5 makes that abundantly clear.

 

[atpollard]

What was that Cup that Jesus drank from then, that caused him to be forsaken while upon that Cross by the father?

I want to believe what I was told, but I cannot believe opinions without scripture. Your efforts to convince me PSA makes LOGICAL SENSE are wasted ... I already believe that. What I cannot find is where GOD SAYS that GOD PUNISHED JESUS WITH THE PUNISHMENT THAT WAS INTENDED FOR ME ... the heart of what I was TOLD by well studied Christians. A great theory without support is still just a theory. It is the SUPPORT that makes it a FACT.

So ... verse, please?
I want to know TRUTH, not Theory.

 

[Aaron]

Isaiah is clear on the WHAT, but it DOES NOT present the message I was always taught that GOD PLACED THE PUNISHMENT THAT I DESERVED ONTO JESUS CHRIST IN MY PLACE. It says that God laid my guilt and sin on Christ and it says that Christ suffered because of my sin ... but it does not say that God transferred my punishment to Christ. That message just isn't there. So I am still left wondering about the WHY, because God didn't say what people claim God said.

To be hanged on a tree is your penalty. Deuteronomy 21:22-23 .

God does indeed say so.

 

[atpollard]

Are you saying that those who feared the Lord, did not actually THINK on His Name?

You realize that the heart of your claim is that all of the translators failed to accurately convey the true meaning of Isiah 53 in English, right? That particular argument makes me uncomfortable ... extraordinary claims demand extraordinary proof.

Isaiah 53:4

KJV

Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.​

NKJV

Surely He has borne our griefs
And carried our sorrows;
Yet we esteemed Him stricken,
Smitten by God, and afflicted.​

NLT

Yet it was our weaknesses he carried;
it was our sorrows that weighed him down.
And we thought his troubles were a punishment from God,
a punishment for his own sins!​

NIV

Surely he took up our pain and bore our suffering, yet we considered him punished by God, stricken by him, and afflicted.​

ESV

Surely he has borne our griefs
and carried our sorrows;
yet we esteemed him stricken,
smitten by God, and afflicted.​

CSB

Yet he himself bore our sicknesses,
and he carried our pains;
but we in turn regarded him stricken,
struck down by God, and afflicted.​

NASB20

However, it was our sicknesses that He Himself bore,
And our pains that He carried;
Yet we ourselves assumed that He had been afflicted,
Struck down by God, and humiliated.​

NASB95

Surely our griefs He Himself bore,
And our sorrows He carried;
Yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken,
Smitten of God, and afflicted.​

NET

But he lifted up our illnesses, he carried our pain; even though we thought he was being punished, attacked by God, and afflicted for something he had done.​

RSV

Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted.​

ASV

Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows; yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.​

YLT

Surely our sicknesses he hath borne, And our pains -- he hath carried them, And we -- we have esteemed him plagued, Smitten of God, and afflicted.​

DBY

Surely *he* hath borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; and we, we did regard him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.​

WEB

Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted.​

So EVERYONE got it wrong? It doesn't mean what they said it means.

NO! It says exactly what YOU claim ... WE THOUGHT (but it ain't necessarily so) that God punished Christ ... when in reality Christ "bore our SICKNESS". Bearing my sickness is not the same as suffering my punishment - unless you can find someplace where GOD SAYS that they are the same. Isaiah 53:4 (in English) says that we thought one thing but REALITY was something else. You are advocating for what men "thought" rather than for what scripture says is the "reality".

I am not a Hebrew Scholar, but I am not willing to "take your word" that all of the Hebrew Scholars that comprised all those translation teams ALL got it wrong (exactly the same) and only you have it right. What does Isaiah 53:4 actually SAY!

• What did men THINK?
• What does God SAY really happened?
• Why all those "but" or "yet" thrown in by the translators?

 

[percho]

[continued]
So now we can look at our Lord’s cry of dereliction. ‘Now when the sixth hour had come, there was darkness over the whole land until the sixth hour. And at the ninth hour, Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying “Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?” Which is translated, “My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?”‘ (Mark 15:33-34).

We will first look at the supernatural darkness that came over the land. There are several places in the O.T. where darkness denotes God’s wrath and judgement, especially connected to the ‘day of the Lord,’ e.g. Joel 2:31; Amos 5:18-20; Zephaniah 1:14-15 and particularly Isaiah 13:9-11 (quoted in Mark 13:24-25). so the darkness indicates the righteous anger of God, but against whom? The Lord Jesus Himself tells us that it is against Himself as the sin-bearer. ‘Then Jesus said to them, “All of you will be made to stumble because of Me this night, for it is written, ‘I will strike the Shepherd, and the sheep will be scattered'”‘ (Mark 14:27). The quotation is from Zechariah 13:7 and makes it perfectly clear that God Himself is the One who will strike the Shepherd. The Lord Jesus was made sin, and God’s righteous anger against sin was poured out upon Him instead of us, with His full knowledge and consent.

We now come to the dereliction of Christ. As I have said elsewhere, I cannot possibly accept that “My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me” can possibly be read as “My God, My God, You haven’t forsaken Me.” Nor can I accept that David, who is described as a prophet in Acts 2:30, was actually a false prophet in that he made an error in Psalm 22:1 (c.f. Deuteronomy 18:20-22). Nor is it a case of ‘God forsaking God’ any more than God prays to God (e.g. John 17). The Son prays to the Father, although the Father does not pray to the Son, and on the cross, the Father temporarily forsakes the Son.

I know that some people find this hard to accept, but it must be true because the Holy Spirit has preserved His words for us. “My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me? Why are You so far from helping Me, and from the words of My groaning? O My God, I cry in the daytime, but You do not hear; and in the night season, and am not silent” (Psalms 22:1-2). Although it was 3 o’clock in the afternoon, it was the ‘night season’ for darkness had fallen upon the land, as if to hide the shame of the God-man made sin. For those hours, as a Man, He was quite literally God-forsaken. To be sure, we need to be careful here. We must not suggest that the Father was not present at Calvary for the very good reason that He is Omni-present. ‘”Do I not fill heaven and earth?” Declares the LORD’ (Jeremiah 23:23-24; c.f. Psalms 139:7-12). Rather it means that the Son, who had enjoyed the constant and closest possible relationship with His Father, now lacked completely any sense of His presence until the sun appeared once more and He cried, “It is finished!” The Greek word tetelestai can also mean, ‘It is paid’ (c.f. Matthew 17:14) or ‘it is accomplished (c.f. Luke 9:31). In fact, our Lord’s cry meant all those things. The ransom was paid in full, reconciliation between Man and God was accomplished, and His suffering was about to be ended. This agrees with Psalms 22:21b; 'You have answered Me.' The Father heard the Son's cry and deemed that atonement had been made

This forsaking of Christ is an integral part of the atonement. Christ ‘is able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him.’ His is a complete salvation. I shall not be condemned for my sins because Christ was made sin for me. I shall not suffer the pains of hell because Christ has suffered them on my behalf on the cross. I shall not be shut out from the presence of God (2 Thessalonians 1:9) because Christ was shut out from the felt presence of His Father on my behalf.

Martin two great posts.

Now: KISS, "keep it simply, simple"

Matt 27:46 περὶ δὲ τὴν ἐννάτην ὥραν ἀνεβόησεν ὁ Ἰησοῦς φωνῇ μεγάλῃ λέγων, Ηλι ηλι λαμὰ σαβαχθανι τοῦτ᾽ ἔστιν Θεέ μου θεέ μου ἱνατί με ἐγκατέλιπες ----- that why me you did forsake
Acts 2:27 ὅτι οὐκ ἐγκαταλείψεις τὴν ψυχήν μου εἰς ᾅδου, οὐδὲ δώσεις τὸν ὅσιόν σου ἰδεῖν διαφθοράν ---------------------------
that not you shall be forsaking the soul of me into Hades

Forsaken of God the Father for three days and three nights, dead.

 

[agedman]

So what is this cup which the Lord Jesus must drink, but the consumption of which He so dreaded? The O.T. tells us; it is a cup of judgement and wrath against the wicked. ‘For in the hand of the LORD there is a cup, and the wine is red; it is fully mixed, and He pours it out; surely its dregs shall all the wicked of the earth drain down and drink’ (Psalm 75:8). ‘For thus says the LORD GOD of Israel to me, “Take this wine cup from My hand and cause all the nations, to whom I send you to drink it. And they will drink and stagger and go mad because of the sword I will send among them……..”‘ (Jeremiah 25:15-32).

[For much of the last two paragraphs I have drawn on Pierced for our Transgressions by Jeffrey, Ovey and Sach (IVP, 2007. ISBN 978-1-84474-178-6)]

It is fine to copy and take from other sources, and I enjoyed the read. However, I left a portion of the post in which I disagree.

This cup is for the wicked. NOT for the Christ who NEVER sinned, and remained pure and innocent.

This is one of the continued difficulties with many who present the PSA, for it does oblige that in some manner the Lord Jesus became dirty, covered over and within with sin, and as such had to be removed from the trinity.

That is not EVER what the Scriptures present.

When the the Lord ask concerning the cup, did He not say, "You will indeed drink my cup."

Therefore, it was NOT some cup that could not be withstood by the disciples, for they and even many have drunk of the cup of sorrow and torture.

 

[SavedByGrace]

You realize that the heart of your claim is that all of the translators failed to accurately convey the true meaning of Isiah 53 in English, right? That particular argument makes me uncomfortable ... extraordinary claims demand extraordinary proof.

Isaiah 53:4

KJV

Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.​

NKJV

Surely He has borne our griefs
And carried our sorrows;
Yet we esteemed Him stricken,
Smitten by God, and afflicted.​

NLT

Yet it was our weaknesses he carried;
it was our sorrows that weighed him down.
And we thought his troubles were a punishment from God,
a punishment for his own sins!​

NIV

Surely he took up our pain and bore our suffering, yet we considered him punished by God, stricken by him, and afflicted.​

ESV

Surely he has borne our griefs
and carried our sorrows;
yet we esteemed him stricken,
smitten by God, and afflicted.​

CSB

Yet he himself bore our sicknesses,
and he carried our pains;
but we in turn regarded him stricken,
struck down by God, and afflicted.​

NASB20

However, it was our sicknesses that He Himself bore,
And our pains that He carried;
Yet we ourselves assumed that He had been afflicted,
Struck down by God, and humiliated.​

NASB95

Surely our griefs He Himself bore,
And our sorrows He carried;
Yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken,
Smitten of God, and afflicted.​

NET

But he lifted up our illnesses, he carried our pain; even though we thought he was being punished, attacked by God, and afflicted for something he had done.​

RSV

Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted.​

ASV

Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows; yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.​

YLT

Surely our sicknesses he hath borne, And our pains -- he hath carried them, And we -- we have esteemed him plagued, Smitten of God, and afflicted.​

DBY

Surely *he* hath borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; and we, we did regard him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.​

WEB

Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted.​

So EVERYONE got it wrong? It doesn't mean what they said it means.

NO! It says exactly what YOU claim ... WE THOUGHT (but it ain't necessarily so) that God punished Christ ... when in reality Christ "bore our SICKNESS". Bearing my sickness is not the same as suffering my punishment - unless you can find someplace where GOD SAYS that they are the same. Isaiah 53:4 (in English) says that we thought one thing but REALITY was something else. You are advocating for what men "thought" rather than for what scripture says is the "reality".

I am not a Hebrew Scholar, but I am not willing to "take your word" that all of the Hebrew Scholars that comprised all those translation teams ALL got it wrong (exactly the same) and only you have it right. What does Isaiah 53:4 actually SAY!

• What did men THINK?
• What does God SAY really happened?
• Why all those "but" or "yet" thrown in by the translators?

All I can say is you need to actually know Hebrew. Did you see the reference from Malachi