You have just rewritten and redited the scriptures to water down the agony and horror that the Lord Jesus experienced and took for our sakes, as he experienced FAR worse than just physical pain of the cross there
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Atonement Continued
- Thread starter JonC
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37818
Well-Known Member
The problem of langauge and what we understand words and or phrases to mean.
"The Biblical Atonement."
Every Christian on this board will agree with this phrase.
But the difference between the perishing of the lost and Christ's payment making that atonement are both the same and totally different in some important ways.
The wages of sin is death (Ezekiel 18:4). And Christ died in place of sinners (1 Corinthians 15:3, Isaiah 53:10). There is what is the same and what is different. The lost will have an unquechable fire (Mark 9:48). Christ did not (Psalms 22:6).
One should explain the truth as one knows it. Merely denying terminoloty one disagrees with does not help one to correctly understand the view not held.
"The Biblical Atonement."
Every Christian on this board will agree with this phrase.
But the difference between the perishing of the lost and Christ's payment making that atonement are both the same and totally different in some important ways.
The wages of sin is death (Ezekiel 18:4). And Christ died in place of sinners (1 Corinthians 15:3, Isaiah 53:10). There is what is the same and what is different. The lost will have an unquechable fire (Mark 9:48). Christ did not (Psalms 22:6).
One should explain the truth as one knows it. Merely denying terminoloty one disagrees with does not help one to correctly understand the view not held.
No. What I have done is rely solely on Scripture. That is why, as much as you object, you cannot produce even one passage that I or @agedman deny.
What we deny is your addition to Scripture. It isn't even a matter of interpretation. You are adding to God's Word.
The problem is not termology. The problem is actually adding to Scripture.
You are denying Pauline Justification, at least as How pretty much all reformed and Baptist have defined it as being !
37818
Well-Known Member
What is being added? Isaiah 53:6, Romans 5:8, 1 Peter 3:18.
Why not?
What does the Scriptures teach are the wages of Sin?
Have not all sinned?
Have not all died?
AFTER DEATH is the judgement.
Scripture?
No, The accuser(s) continue to accuse, what was satisfied were the decrees of the Law (Colossians).
All those scriptures are agreed by @JonC and me.
It is how those who teach PSA that stretch them to mean what the Scriptures do not state.
Penal Substitution Theory adds that God was punishing Jesus instead of us and that Christ experienced God's wrath, for starters.
Can you highlight that in those passages? Of course not.....it isn't there.
What do the Scriptures state?
@JonC and I go no further then agreeing with Scripture statements, for to go further is to superimpose some agenda such as PSA.
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37818
Well-Known Member
Isaiah 53:6, ". . . All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. . . ."
Yes. I think this is clear. The Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all. He bore our sins. He is the Propitiation for the sins of the World.
BUT what doesn't that verse say? It does not say God punished Jesus instead of us. It does not say that Christ experienced God's wrath. It has absolutely nothing to do with the Penal Substitution Theory of Atonement (over any other view).
In fact, you could summarize that by saying Christ's death reconciled man to God and His life reconciles men to God.
There is no way to reconcile Penal Substitution Theory with Scripture because not only is it foreign to Scripture but it also obscures the truth of Scripture (as evidenced by members lack of ability to even recognize that what they saying is not even in the verses they post).
37818
Well-Known Member
Yet, Christ in bearing our sin and His soul dying in our place is a substution of a kind. Isaiah 53:6, Isaiah 53:10, Isaiah 53:12.
37818
Well-Known Member
@JonC, even on the premise your understanding is correct and mine is in error. I do not yet understand your view to even for me to be able to argue your view. The only argument I can make is the differences between how Christ bore our sins compared to the eternity of the lost. But that is still a penal substitution of some kind.
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Give me a moment, brother. Let's reason together.
Here are the verses you offer:
Isaiah 53:6 All of us like sheep have gone astray,
Each of us has turned to his own way;
But the Lord has caused the iniquity of us all
To fall on Him.
Isaiah 53:10 But the Lord was pleased
To crush Him, putting Him to grief;
If He would render Himself as a guilt offering,
He will see His offspring,
He will prolong His days,
And the good pleasure of the Lord will prosper in His hand.
Isaiah 53:12 Therefore, I will allot Him a portion with the great,
And He will divide the booty with the strong;
Because He poured out Himself to death,
And was numbered with the transgressors;
Yet He Himself bore the sin of many,
And interceded for the transgressors.
Note what is NOT said.
Nowhere is it said that God punished Christ instead of us.
Nowhere is it said Christ died instead of us.
Nowhere does it speak of soul death, or spiritual death.
Nowhere does it say Christ experienced God's wrath.
Where does all of that stuff come from since obviously not the Bible?
I will try to help. Feel free to ask any questions.
For me it is simple.
Adam's transgression introduced sin and death (the wages, or consequences, of sin is death). Mankind was enslaved by sin and death. It is appointed man once to die (physical death) and then the Judgment. This does not change.
Christ shared in our infirmity. He became a curse, He bore our sins, He died. And He was judged by the Father - He was vindicated and raised to glory.
His death reconciled mankind to God. Christ is the "Last Adam", He became a "Life Giving Spirit". All Judgment has been given Him. And in Him there is no condemnation (those "in Him" escape the wrath to come).
Mankind was reconciled to God by Christ's death and men are saved by His life. God is just and the justifier of sinners.
Those in Christ will also die physically, but in Him there is no condemnation (He gives life). Those not in Christ will die and then the Judgment - and this is the Judgment, that Light has come into the world and they rejected the Light.
37818
Well-Known Member
Your translation you chose said, ". . . render Himself as a guilt offering . . . " instead of ". . . make his soul an offering for sin . . . ." And I had argued, "bearing our sin and His soul dying in our place. . ." with Isaiah 53:6, ". . . the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all . . ." in mind.
Either translation is fine with me.
Christ made his soul an offering for sin. He bore our sins. God laid upon Him the iniquity of us all.
Christ is the "Last Adam". His death reconciled man to God, and men ate saved through His life. On the criss God was reconciling man to Himself, and we now have the ministry of reconciliation- begging men to be reconciled to God.
My point is Penal Substitution Theory is found nowhere in the Bibke. It is a humanistic theory that fit the worldview of the 16th century and is based on that philosophy rather than the Bible. It starts with secular philosophy, works out a theory, and then goes to Scripture to find "support".
What Christians should do is lay aside their presuppositions and traditions. Go to the Bible, and belueve what is written.
Unfortunately many, like Penal Substitution Theorists, cannot accept the simple truth of Scripture and reach back to the flesh and cinema up with theological systems and theories to "explain" what is plainly before them. They believe Scripture insufficient because it is too simple for them, and they dismiss "what is written" to defend what they believe is taught.
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