Does God Ordain Everything That Takes Place?

[agedman]

@Silverhair

Perhaps you present “very good” as perfect?

I don’t think at this point that it is the same.

Besides, I didn’t present that at creation God made Adam sinful, but that sin was lurking.

If it wasn’t, then when did Lucifer come into the garden?

 

[agedman]

So your saying that when God made Adam in His image there was sin already lurking in him? Not what the bible says.

Gen 1:26 Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image,...
Gen 1:27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.

And we are told that what God made was not just good but it was very good.
Gen 1:31 Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good.

Perhaps you need a rethink on your view?

Not at all what I posted.

You inserted word(s) I did not post to make it present what was not posted.

That isn’t good for you to do.

 

[agedman]

You deny clear text and you say I am twisting text. Austin you have to learn how to read.

Perhaps it would be better that that be your assigned task.

Why not start again, and this time quote my post, accurately.

 

[Silverhair]

wrong;

PARAGRAPH 1
God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass;

1 yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin

nor hath fellowship with any therein;


2 nor is violence offered to the will of the creature,

nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away,

but rather established;


3 in which appears His wisdom in disposing all things, and power and faithfulness in accomplishing His decree.






1 Isa. 46:10; Eph. 1:11; Heb. 6:17; Rom. 9:15,18
2 James 1:13; 1 John 1:5
3 Acts 4:27–28; John 19:11
4 Num. 23:19; Eph. 1:3–5

God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass;

1 yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin

If you cannot see the clear contradiction between these two statements then you have a obvious comprehension problem.
Clearly you are more concerned about upholding Calvinism than the bible.
Place your Calvinism on the shelf and just trust the bible. Your goal seems to be to make people Calvinists whereas mine is to show them the way to be Christians.

 

[Silverhair]

Not at all what I posted.

You inserted word(s) I did not post to make it present what was not posted.

That isn’t good for you to do.

So when you say that sin was lurking in Adam who was made in the image of God then where did the lurking sin come from?

 

[agedman]

So when you say that sin was lurking in Adam who was made in the image of God then where did the lurking sin come from?

Did I post “sin was lurking in Adam?”

 

[DaveXR650]

God in His sovereignty has allowed for man to have a free will so that we can make real choices. We also see that God has not left us without information about Himself. We have creation we have the gospel message etc. It is not that man can not make a choice to trust in Christ Jesus it is that for some they will not make that choice.

I understand your position. It's just that the more you lean to Calvinistic thinking the more you tend to think that our will is so impaired that we just won't ever tend to make the right choice. I mean there are verses that say we are so bad off that we are spiritually dead, not just impaired. We pray for unsaved friends that God would "open their eyes" or "soften their hearts" or "bring them under conviction". Are we not saying by that that there is more to this than leaving it to a person to make the right choice. Most Baptists believe that once you decide to get saved you are always going to be kept by God no matter what. Why then can't we accept the possibility that God can act on the front end too and grab us in the first place.

 

[Silverhair]

This is a good point too and I didn't mean to ignore it. Generally it is thought that Adam had a free will in a different way than we do now. Your reasoning there is a popular way of looking at it but it is an incorrect leap to say if Adam was created with a free will then we now have the same exact free will. It works if you have a belief system that minimizes or denies the Fall as being an event that directly effects us as people.

I do not deny the fall but then again I do not add to it what the bible does not say or what the bible shows. Adam was and we are spiritually separated from God. But When you read the bible without a preconceived view you will see that man has been given many good faith offers by God. Look at the number of times that we see If / Then offers. Now either God was being honest in the offer or He was being deceptive. You decide, does this show the ability to make real choices or not. I think you know where I stand on this issue.

 

[Mikey]

You cannot touch anything they teach,lol

Yep, all he could do was to mock them.

SBG hasn't been able to counter anything that has been brought up. This is the second thread (because he continually starts threads on the same topic) which i have asked sbg to respond to the same statements, and he still hasn't.

 

[Silverhair]

Nope, keep twisting. Your open theism is keeping you from embracing the Supremacy of God.

Why do you slander me by saying that I am an Open Theist. Would you like me to call you a non bible believing Calvinist.
You do not like the idea that anyone would dare question your misunderstanding of scripture. Your errors have been pointed out to you many times but you respond like a child with a ya but type comment. And then you wonder why people put you on ignore.

 

[agedman]

@Silverhair

I am waiting for a response concerning a post you made in which you claimed I posted what I did not present.

Have you looked back and seen your error?

 

[Silverhair]

@Silverhair

Perhaps you present “very good” as perfect?

I don’t think at this point that it is the same.

Besides, I didn’t present that at creation God made Adam sinful, but that sin was lurking.

If it wasn’t, then when did Lucifer come into the garden?

No I just present "very good" as very good just as the bible has it. But I do have a question for you. Since God made Lucifer where did the sin that was found in him come from?

 

[DaveXR650]

I do not deny the fall but then again I do not add to it what the bible does not say or what the bible shows. Adam was and we are spiritually separated from God. But When you read the bible without a preconceived view you will see that man has been given many good faith offers by God. Look at the number of times that we see If / Then offers. Now either God was being honest in the offer or He was being deceptive. You decide, does this show the ability to make real choices or not. I think you know where I stand on this issue.

I know this is going to sound like I'm being a smart aleck but the offer is genuine and whether it be a Bible verse or a sermon or a warning from a friend sharing the gospel - if it turns out that the person gets saved then those offers were the means for it to happen. Remember, when a Calvinist talks about someone being "unable" to choose Christ the inability is moral in nature. In other words the person "can't " come to Christ only because he won't. Moral inability is just as deadly as physical inability if it keeps you from believing in Christ but in reality it's a case where if anything God is respecting your sovereign will. If God were to say "all you have to do is leap over the church" then you could claim God was unjust if you can't do it. But if our natural tendency is to reject God because we want to then that kind of inability is our fault, not God's.

 

[agedman]

No I just present "very good" as very good just as the bible has it. But I do have a question for you. Since God made Lucifer where did the sin that was found in him come from?

What does the Bible say?

 

[Silverhair]

@Silverhair

I am waiting for a response concerning a post you made in which you claimed I posted what I did not present.

Have you looked back and seen your error?

Took me a bit to find the original post. My bad I miss read your post. But it does bring up another question, where did the sin come from. Lucifer was made by God so you would think no sin, right. So did God give him the sin nature or did Lucifer have a God given free will?

 

[Silverhair]

Nope, keep twisting. Your open theism is keeping you from embracing the Supremacy of God.

God is sovereign over His sovereignty which means He can do as He pleases. Like give man a real free will. You say that God is sovereign and then you limit what He can do.

There is neither a logical nor biblical reason why a sovereign God by His own sovereign choice could not allow and give creatures made in His image the real moral freedom to make real moral choices.

You keep claiming that I am something that I have told you more than once that I am not so this just shows that you are acting like a troll. You really a trying to deal with so it is best if I just ignore you.

 

[Silverhair]

I understand your position. It's just that the more you lean to Calvinistic thinking the more you tend to think that our will is so impaired that we just won't ever tend to make the right choice. I mean there are verses that say we are so bad off that we are spiritually dead, not just impaired. We pray for unsaved friends that God would "open their eyes" or "soften their hearts" or "bring them under conviction". Are we not saying by that that there is more to this than leaving it to a person to make the right choice. Most Baptists believe that once you decide to get saved you are always going to be kept by God no matter what. Why then can't we accept the possibility that God can act on the front end too and grab us in the first place.

Do you not think that a loving God would provide the means of finding Him since we are told to seek Him. The Holy Spirit convicts us and creation shows us that there is a creator so if God does this do you really think that He would then make it impossible for someone to trust in Him for salvation. God has said that He seeks us and this is true but what He does not do is force anyone to love Him.

Dave you think that Calvinism is the best answer but I do not. I trusted in God long before I had ever heard of either Calvinism or Arminianism and I am glad that I did. My faith was shaped by the bible not what some man said about the bible.

 

[Silverhair]

What does the Bible say?

Your the one that said sin was lurking there so my question for you is where do that lurking sin come from? Surely you can answer that can't you?

 

[agedman]

Took me a bit to find the original post. My bad I miss read your post. But it does bring up another question, where did the sin come from. Lucifer was made by God so you would think no sin, right. So did God give him the sin nature or did Lucifer have a God given free will?

This is purely speculation on my part, for humans were made a bit lower then angels. Me a great amount less!

Humans tend to think and construct reasoning using what little capacity that we have, and we also tend to put that which pertains to the Spiritual forces and rules in human concepts. This can lead to some very wrong conceptions, and more often one is better to agree with Scriptures and move on.

For example, when arguing with Lucifer over the body of Moses, we read that the God’s Angel could not rely upon his own authority but said, “the Lord rebuke you.” So the command structure of God’s creation is not as we might consider, but perhaps beyond any human understanding.

In Daniel we read how an angel was prevented from coming to Daniel for some time, by Lucifer or at least his comrade(s).

Because Lucifer was made by God, and had the greatest authority second only to God, then I doubt that God did not give him decision making ability along with untold power over all God’s creation. An earthly example might be like Joseph in Potipher’s house.

One may speculate about the ability and authority of Lucifer, such as some say he cannot be in two places at once as God can, but that isn’t found in Scriptures, and our only weapon is the Word of God.

The Scriptures present that the human will is corrupt with the desires of earthly matters. That there is a bondage of the human will to that of slavery. So, in truth humans have no pure freedom of the will, but can choose that which is good at best.


Therefore, I would imagine that Lucifer, as the kingdom holder of which he showed example to the Christ, has as evil and depraved will as a being could have, for did not Christ say of those religious righteous, “You are of your father, the devil.”

It is certainly seen in the revelations just the kind of show Lucifer can put on.

 

[DaveXR650]

Dave you think that Calvinism is the best answer but I do not. I trusted in God long before I had ever heard of either Calvinism or Arminianism and I am glad that I did. My faith was shaped by the bible not what some man said about the bible.

I think it's probably the best answer. As far as I can tell from any post I've ever seen you put on here there is nothing wrong with your faith. I personally think these issues are secondary and enjoy the conversation.