DGOETTP part two

[timtofly]

So that's a no. It is not possible that it would be different. Ergo, it was part of His plan.

Another question: How far back in eternity did God know this?

There is no back or forward in eternity.

 

[percho]

We're not told, but probably in darkness. Like the angels, darkness was not part of Creation. It was there in the beginning.



One cannot read Revelation like it is historical narrative. It is a revelation of Jesus Christ in symbols. It is utterly ridiculous to imagine a literal war in heaven between God's forces and the forces of the Devil. Revelation 12:7-9 is a picture of Satan's persecution of the church. Michael and His angels are the church and her Head. They overcame the dragon by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. Revelation 12:11

Revelation 12:7-9 is still taking place.

Genesis 1:2 does not describe an earth wasted by the casting out of the Devil and his angels. There was no form to the earth (neither was there to the heavens for that matter). There was only the Deep, the waters, the raw materials out of which were formed the heavens and the earth.

Had it already been foreordained that Christ would shed His blood for Redemption? Yes, of course. He is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Revelation 13:8 . But it is not a necessity brought upon the earth by desolation as the result of an angelic war fought somewhere in the universe. Things were not as you imagine.

But we know from Creation, that one of the duties of a father is to find a bride for his son. God brought all the animals to Adam, the son of God ( Luke 3:38 ) but there was not a suitable mate. So He put Adam to sleep, and opened his side, and took a bride out of him, and presented her to him, not having spot or wrinkle. (Death and sickness had not yet entered the world.)

The reason for Creation was to find a bride for the Son of the Father, and just as the picture, a bride was taken out of Christ Himself, that He may present her to Himself, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing.

And the great dragon ---, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan - From Rev 12:9 sans irrelevant words
Now the serpent - From Gen 3:1
To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God - From Acts 26

Are all of those emboldened speaking of the same entity? Is that entity associated with darkness?

And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. Gen 1:2 1st sentence.

Where do you believe that entity was at the moment of Gen 1:2? 1 John 3:8 says the devil was a sinner from the beginning. At the moment of Gen 1:2 do you believe the devil already is sinning? At the moment of Gen 1:2 was the Son of God going to be manifested because the devil is sinning from the beginning?

At the very moment of Gen 1:2 is man going to be required in order for God to do this? Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

Did the devil who is sinning from the beginning need destroying at the moment in time of Gen 1:2?

If yes how was it going to be accomplished? If no please explain why not?

Is, through death, how we are redeemed?
Is, through death, how the devil is destroyed? How are the, works, of the devil destroyed?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

No.. it isn't.
For example, the last chapter of Joshua is not a free will chapter. In fact, Joshua answers the question of "choose who you will serve" with the answer of "you will fail miserably."

The issue is not that I won't see it. The issue is that you cannot produce it from scripture. You produce it from supposition and then look for any verse (with no regard for context) you can find that you think might be a prooftext.

So, the reality is that free will is not taught by God, yet here you are claiming otherwise and then producing nothing in support of your empty assertion.

Actually yes it is

God told Adam and Eve, Of all the trees in the garden, you may eat. But the one tree. you may not eat. If you do you will suffer consequences.

Adam and ever were free to chose to obey or disobey.

Jesus also told Jerusalem. He wanted to gather them together as a mother hen, But they were unwilling..

if there is no free will. John 3 16 in fact much of john is nonsense. Because we can't chose to believe or work for the food which endures to eternal life. or to ask for the water flowing to eternal life etc etc.

Its there. You just have to be open

 

[percho]

My questions are:
When the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep.

Was the devil already sinning?
Did he need to be dealt with?

One more question.

Why did God call that which he had spoke out of darkness to shine, light, "that good," and separate the light from the darkness?

God is light and in him is no darkness at all.

Does no one believe that is the very same light and darkness spoken of in Acts 26:18 ?

 

[percho]

And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to purpose. Rom 8:28
'Known from the ages to God are all His works; Acts 15:18

And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep.

What is God going to do and why is he going to do what he does?

I Shall Be Who I Shall Be
Tell them, I Shall Be, sent me unto you.
I AM

Son of Man? Son of God?

 

[Aaron]

not fault with GOD, but the UNBIBLICAL RUBBISH the "reformed" teach!

Let me rephrase . . . ever and anon the cry of the noncalvinist is, why doth God yet find fault? For who hath resisted His will? Romans 9:19

 

[SavedByGrace]

Let me rephrase . . . ever and anon the cry of the noncalvinist is, why doth God yet find fault? For who hath resisted His will? Romans 9:19

Reformed theology doeth!

 

[timtofly]

You keep referencing human free will when it is never explicitly or implicitly taught in the Bible. Instead, God tells us we are either a slave to sin or a slave to righteousness. Freedom from a master is not in the cards for any human being.

So, your concept of "free will" is purely a philosophy of the sinful nature of man whereby you rebel against God's chains and imagine you are free from all. Thus you establish your SELF as the autonomous ruler over all things.

Until you can see the evil of your philosophy, you will never grasp the full joy of God's gracious saving work on your behalf. Instead, you will always be thinking, "thanks God, but I can take it from here."

So Eve coerced Adam to eat? Here is that found in Scripture?

Sounds made up to me.

 

[Aaron]

It would really help if you would simply state the point you're trying to make.

And the great dragon ---, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan - From Rev 12:9 sans irrelevant words
Now the serpent - From Gen 3:1
To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God - From Acts 26

Are all of those emboldened speaking of the same entity? Is that entity associated with darkness?

What do you think?

And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. Gen 1:2 1st sentence.

Where do you believe that entity was at the moment of Gen 1:2? 1 John 3:8 says the devil was a sinner from the beginning. At the moment of Gen 1:2 do you believe the devil already is sinning? At the moment of Gen 1:2 was the Son of God going to be manifested because the devil is sinning from the beginning?

At the very moment of Gen 1:2 is man going to be required in order for God to do this? Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

Did the devil who is sinning from the beginning need destroying at the moment in time of Gen 1:2?

If yes how was it going to be accomplished? If no please explain why not?

Is, through death, how we are redeemed?
Is, through death, how the devil is destroyed? How are the, works, of the devil destroyed?

It sounds like you're saying that Creation and the fall of man was a remedy for the sin and evil works of the fallen angels, done 'prior' (if we can conceive of time where there is no time) to Creation, and that is not so. Creation was initiative, not reactive.

All that was made, whether or not its creation is described in Genesis, was made for the glorification of the Son. ( Colossians 1:6 ) This was the field in which He did His Work, which was always His Work, by which He purchased a bride, and through which He merited a Name above all names, and for which He ascended to the throne and received all power and authority in Heaven, and in earth.

God is Love, and there is no greater Love than that a man lay down His life for His friends. How else could the love of God be manifest, than in the Passion of Christ? There is no greater expression thereof. When we are raised from the dead, we will not bear in our glorified bodies the marks of our injuries and sicknesses. Jesus bears the marks of the nails and of the spears, because they are marks of His identity, and the marks of His love.

The Cross was the reason God created the heavens and the earth.

The origin of evil is a mystery. It's vain and foolish to speculate about things that are not revealed. We can only accept the fact that is/was there in the beginning, that God is not the author of it, and that He bent it to serve His will, and that it will be destroyed. In fact, it already is destroyed, it just has yet to be revealed.

Is, through death, how we are redeemed?
Is, through death, how the devil is destroyed? How are the, works, of the devil destroyed?

Yes, through the death of Christ, Hebrews 2:14

 

[Aaron]

There is no back or forward in eternity.

The only remotely accurate thing you've said in this thread.

 

[Aaron]

Yes there was a law, and Paul said it was different than other laws.

Of course Adam was a son of God in the full image of God prior to a direct disobedient act.

Adam was not some protype of things to come. Adam was placed as the chief caretaker of Paradise along with all of his offspring. It would have had room to hold billions.

Adam was not "corrupted". Adam made a willful conscious direct act of disobedience to God. Adam was given one law. That law was only for Adam. Adam was the only one who could deliberately break that law.

Of course there was a liar in the Garden. You seem to think what he was saying was true. This mortal/immortal gibberish comes directly from the thoughts of Satan. Adam was not "made good". Adam was made complete and mature. The full image of God, with a permanent incorruptible physical body. He had on the "robe of white" which is symbolic of having one's spirit on over the physical body. It was not a human made garment. It was God made. Adam lost this covering along with physically dying from an incorruptible to a corruptible body. That is the death, both he and Eve died. That is why they immediately found themselves naked.

The reverse change happens for the redeemed, who enter life when the soul leaves the corruptible tent, for the permanent incorruptible physical body.

Yes angels are symbolically represented on the 4th day as the stars. Angels are the physical stars. The task of angels in the firmament are to be those stars.

Eve was not created on the 6th day. The sons of God were created on the 6th day. Any one who refuses to interpret Genesis 2 as being after the 7th Day, is confused. God clearly planted the Garden after the Sabbath. The Sabbath was also not an evening and a morning. The Day of the Lord is defined in 2 Peter 3:8. In Genesis 2 the day of the Lord is singular, while the generations of life on earth is plural. There were not dozens of generations in a 24 hour period. The time given for many generations between the 6th day and the time God returned to plant the Garden would be a logical 1,000 year period.

There was no sin and no death for 1,000 years. In fact Genesis 2 declares no wild seeds "died" to create new plants. No plants died, nor were eaten. No one even planted domesticated crops which would be also death and recycled life of plants. When God said there was no death, God literally meant no death period. The sons of God and all animals and insects lived on the seeds and fruit, and literally nothing grew from one seed during that whole 1,000 years. And many generations of life happened and spread across the earth.

Satan also had that time to sit and think and he decided he could do better than God with this creation on earth. Obviously God gave him some room to develop this plan, even putting one third of the angels in the pit for 6,000 years as some would call, "collateral damage". All of Seth's offspring also affected, and that was passed down through Noah and his 3 sons to all humankind on earth since the Flood.

Obviously incorruptible does not mean indestructible. It means without sin and decay though. But if death is the last enemy, how can anything die, if there is no death? Seems no one has an imagination capable of defining what it means to not die. So much so people have been confused about Genesis 2 thinking there was a totally different creation format given.

"These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens, And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the Lord God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground. But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground. And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
And the Lord God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed...."

Many claim this is just a repeat creation formula. It is not. It is God explaining what happened during the 1,000 year Sabbath Day. Then God explains what He did for one son of God whom He had created 1,000 years prior. The Garden was planted after the Sabbath Day.

God explained how creation would work at the end of the first chapter:

"And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat. And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so."

So the only food was the seeds, herbs, and fruit. That is why in the second chapter God says no seeds sprang up from the ground neither wild nor domesticated. This was the way of life for many generations, a long period of time. Then after the Sabbath, God came and planted a garden and put Adam in that Garden. That is when Adam's 130 years started until Seth was born. If one counted the Sabbath day, Adam actually lived 1930 years. Adam lived 900 years as a sinner. He lived 1,030 years as a son of God.

But, no, Genesis does not say how long the Sabbath Day was. That takes studying the whole of Scripture, along with the time frame since Adam until now. I am not sure why no one can see that God planted the Garden after the Sabbath Day, though. Genesis 2 is not a repeat of Genesis 1. The only thought from Genesis 1, that God clarifies is more detail of how the sons of God were created.

"And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."

"So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them."

Not only was Adam and all sons of God created in God's image, but came from the dust of the ground and with God's breath, became a living soul.

You're no Baptist. This is the manifesto of a kook, and I have neither the time nor desire to comb through this cultic drivel.

So 1) pick one or two points that you think are the strongest for which you would like a response. And 2) support your reasoning.

And 3) Are you watching a lot of Kenneth Copeland?

 

[Aaron]

sounds like to me you are.

God did not create evil. nor endorse it, nor condone it.

Does he allow it? Well, when you give people free will. that's a consequence of free will beings.. they may rebel against you and create evil themselves.

So you're saying it sprang from His creation as He knew it would. That's exactly what I'm saying. The only thing I'm saying different is that He incorporated it into His plan, which was His plan from eternity. That no more makes God the author sin than you saying He just reacted to it.

 

[AustinC]

Actually yes it is

God told Adam and Eve, Of all the trees in the garden, you may eat. But the one tree. you may not eat. If you do you will suffer consequences.

Adam and ever were free to chose to obey or disobey.

Jesus also told Jerusalem. He wanted to gather them together as a mother hen, But they were unwilling..

if there is no free will. John 3 16 in fact much of john is nonsense. Because we can't chose to believe or work for the food which endures to eternal life. or to ask for the water flowing to eternal life etc etc.

Its there. You just have to be open

A perfect example of your philosophy of free will.
Let's consider this. Adam and Eve break God's laws and God allows them to do this so that sin imprisons Adam and Eve, bringing death. No matter what Adam and Eve will for themselves, they cannot escape sin, which has become their master. From that point on, Adam and Eve must have faith in a Redeemer who would come to ransom them from their chains. Every offspring of Adam and Eve are also born in slavery under Sin as their master. Every person must look forward in faith to the time when the Redeemer will come. Their only hope is in their faith being their justification.
There is no amount of willpower that can save them. No freedom of the will that can unlock the chains of sin. Only the Redeemer can unlock those chains and the Redeemer must choose to unlock the chains.
Now, let's go farther and see that all humans are, by nature, in rebellion against their Redeemer. Given any freedom of will, they will, 100% of the time, choose some created object over the Creator (Read Romans 1). They will never seek God (Read Romans 3).
So, unless you imagine yourself to be a sinless Adam, you are a dead man walking with zero free will.

Do you have any other philosophies you wish to promote.

 

[timtofly]

My questions are:
When the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep.

Was the devil already sinning?
Did he need to be dealt with?

One more question.

Why did God call that which he had spoke out of darkness to shine, light, "that good," and separate the light from the darkness?

God is light and in him is no darkness at all.

Does no one believe that is the very same light and darkness spoken of in Acts 26:18 ?

No, it is not the same light and darkness.

In Genesis 1 we have the question, "which came first the light or the lights in the sky?" Like the chicken and egg conundrum.

The chicken came first. But the light came first before there were physical sources of light. Satan was not a separate creation, and the angels are the stars so the angels along with Satan were created on day 4.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

So you're saying it sprang from His creation as He knew it would. That's exactly what I'm saying. The only thing I'm saying different is that He incorporated it into His plan, which was His plan from eternity. That no more makes God the author sin than you saying He just reacted to it.

If you are promoting fatalism. That Adam had no choice, and no free will, that he sinned because God planned it. Then yes you are saying God is the author of sin.

The Bible says no one who is tempted can say that temptation can come from God. God did not tempt adam. Adam was tempted by the woman and the thought that Satan may be right and God was wrong. He failed due to lack of faith and selfishness. Due to free will

 

[Eternally Grateful]

A perfect example of your philosophy of free will.
Let's consider this. Adam and Eve break God's laws and God allows them to do this so that sin imprisons Adam and Eve, bringing death. No matter what Adam and Eve will for themselves, they cannot escape sin, which has become their master. From that point on, Adam and Eve must have faith in a Redeemer who would come to ransom them from their chains. Every offspring of Adam and Eve are also born in slavery under Sin as their master. Every person must look forward in faith to the time when the Redeemer will come. Their only hope is in their faith being their justification.
There is no amount of willpower that can save them. No freedom of the will that can unlock the chains of sin. Only the Redeemer can unlock those chains and the Redeemer must choose to unlock the chains.
Now, let's go farther and see that all humans are, by nature, in rebellion against their Redeemer. Given any freedom of will, they will, 100% of the time, choose some created object over the Creator (Read Romans 1). They will never seek God (Read Romans 3).
So, unless you imagine yourself to be a sinless Adam, you are a dead man walking with zero free will.

Do you have any other philosophies you wish to promote.

You forgot one thing

Did adam ask to have God look for them? Did he not blame shift and try to blame eve?

Did God not cover their nakedness? Did they stop him? Did God force them to take those clothes? Did God force Abel to offer from the flock? Did God force Cain to offer from his garden?

Free will is all over the place.

You can not have a relationship apart from free will. All you would have is a dictatorship. And the one who is forced to love would be a puppet..

 

[timtofly]

You're no Baptist. This is the manifesto of a kook, and I have neither the time nor desire to comb through this cultic drivel.

So 1) pick one or two points that you think are the strongest for which you would like a response. And 2) support your reasoning.

And 3) Are you watching a lot of Kenneth Copeland?

Since when has God's Word been that hard to understand? Perhaps Baptist have gotten too wrapped up in human philosophy?

 

[Aaron]

Since when has God's Word been that hard to understand? Perhaps Baptist have gotten too wrapped up in human philosophy?

Again

1) pick one or two points that you think are the strongest for which you would like a response.

And 2) support your reasoning.

And 3) Are you watching a lot of Kenneth Copeland?

And 4)Do you incorporate rattle snakes in your worship services?

 

[Aaron]

If you are promoting fatalism. That Adam had no choice, and no free will, that he sinned because God planned it. Then yes you are saying God is the author of sin.

Whatever.

The Bible says no one who is tempted can say that temptation can come from God. God did not tempt adam. Adam was tempted by the woman and the thought that Satan may be right and God was wrong. He failed due to lack of faith and selfishness. Due to free will

No one said that God tempted Adam. Adam was tempted of the Devil.

Adam was made good. Can a good tree bring forth evil fruit? Then he was corrupted by a lie. Can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit?

Who let the Devil into the Garden?

 

[AustinC]

You forgot one thing

Did adam ask to have God look for them? Did he not blame shift and try to blame eve?

Did God not cover their nakedness? Did they stop him? Did God force them to take those clothes? Did God force Abel to offer from the flock? Did God force Cain to offer from his garden?

Free will is all over the place.

You can not have a relationship apart from free will. All you would have is a dictatorship. And the one who is forced to love would be a puppet..

I note that for being "all over the place" you have nothing in scripture, other than an attempt to look at Adam...before sin made him a slave.
Your post perfectly shows you falling on philosophy as you attempt to argue that humans would be puppets, if your philosophy isn't correct.
Are slaves, who are imprisoned in their confines, puppets? No. Do they have freedom to do whatever they will? Not at all.
The Bible tells us that we were slaves to sin. This means...no freedom. No free will.
Read Romans 6.