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I know this horse is dead as dead can be....
- Thread starter timdabap
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37818
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True. Not that I agree with that view.
[Ezekiel 18:4, ". . . the soul that sinneth, it shall die. . . ." Isaiah 53:12, ". . . he hath poured out his soul unto death: . . ."]
Of course there is. Even in human court systems.
Punishment without wrath is a Scripture principle.
The Shepherds carried two major instruments. The Staff and the Rod.
The were for guidance and protection. They were not interchangeable.
Often the Scriptures speak of the rod of correction. “Spare the rod…”
The cross is as a rod of punishment for the Romans. It was the Roman death sentence for non citizens.
Though extremely torturous, the cross was designed to allow the suffering to be extensive and extended over many days.
Death was postponed as much as possible.
True, as best as I have searched and continue to search the Scriptures, there is not a single verse that even eludes to God pouring His wrath out upon the Son.
I am determined to find such a Scripture, but have found none.
In carrying out a sentence, the human officers are serving God to execute [God's] wrath upon him that doeth evil. Romans 13:4 Not the state's wrath. The state has no claim on vengeance, and much less does the executioner. And though this may be a bitter pill to swallow, neither does the victim. Vengeance is mine, I will repay, saith the Lord. Romans 12:19
Now you can clearly see the wrath of God in the Cross, because the law that Paul directs us to, to show us that Jesus became a curse for us, is the just sentence on a criminal worthy of death. Deuteronomy 21:22-23 To hang a man on a tree to die, is the execution of wrath.
timdabap
Member
for more than ten years, I avoided this Board, I did not leave it, I avoided it, because there seems to be a hodgepodge of half-bred new age ideas coming into it then. now the wrath of God on sin, which Christ became, is being reasoned away.....and the beauty of grace is that even purveyors of such ideas, provided their names are in the Lamb's book of life, have been included in grace and mercy....God is not only good, God is very good.
Yes, neither @JonC nor I deny Paul rehearsed the Deuteronomy statement.
What does that phrase actually mean?
Does it mean, folks swore, probably they did, but that wasn’t the meaning as used - although that is the exact meaning of the word.
Does it mean death, perhaps but (imo) there is more.
The wording is that of one condemned, one appointed for doom and catastrophe.
For example:
WAIT! I already gave examples! Why am I repeating myself, ah it must be the teacher in me…..
The point being, Paul’s statement does not require one to have the judgement of a curse to be “cursed by the law.”
You ask why I kept pointing to Colossians 2.
Because there is exactly how Gods dealt with the curse.
Not by Wrath.
Colossians 2:
13You were dead because of your sins and because your sinful nature was not yet cut away. Then God made you alive with Christ, for he forgave all our sins. 14He canceled the record of the charges against us and took it away by nailing it to the cross. 15In this way, he disarmed the spiritual rulers and authorities. He shamed them publicly by his victory over them on the cross. (NLT)
Therefore, it remains that there is the forgiveness of sins, and disposal of the curse without Wrath from God.
This further brings consistency to Isaiah pressing that the crucifixion was pleasing to God.
I assume you missed the great lengthy searching of Scriptures done on this project over the last number of weeks and many threads.
I compliment every contributor, for mostly it remained on topic with not much of the typical sniping, but folks were really coming to bring Scriptures to the threads.
We worked through passages not only in Isaiah and the gospels, but Genesis, Leviticus, Exodus, Deuteronomy, Psalms, Jeremiah, Acts, Romans, Hebrews, other epistles, Revelation, and more. We delved into history, and sallied forth with many opinions.
I was very proud of the work folks put into the search of Scriptures. Reminded me of classrooms where students were engaged to the point of leaning over each other’s desk to point out a passage while another was searching for a different principle to apply.
No minds were changed, that I could tell, but learning occurred, and that edification will (imo) be used of the Lord to strengthen.
So, the carry over from those discussions will go on.
Not to diminish the majesty nor authority of Our Redeemer, but as occasion arises, to again show differences do not necessarily mean weakness.
Just so you know, this ancient man does not agree with two areas of PSA.
One is concerning the Wrath. I think that presents error.
The other is in the use of the word substitution. I think that the Scriptures do not use that term on purpose, but use the words meaning transfer and satisfy.
...all the more reason for you to stick around...you're needed.
Alexander Hamilton had his horse shot out from under him. It did not get up and trot away.
What verse says or suggests God's wrath (the consequence and punishment of not following the will of God) was poured out on Christ? None as Christ is sinless.
What was in the "cup" which Christ choose to drink? Wrath? Nope! The cup was to hold the blood of Christ, thus His life was the drink, He choose to die to provide the New Covenant in His Blood.
Is God right to have a Holy Wrath?
Exodus 17:2-6
Therefore the people quarreled with Moses and said, “Give us water to drink.” And Moses said to them, “Why do you quarrel with me? Why do you test the Lord?” But the people thirsted there for water, and the people grumbled against Moses and said, “Why did you bring us up out of Egypt, to kill us and our children and our livestock with thirst?” So Moses cried to the Lord, “What shall I do with this people? They are almost ready to stone me.” And the Lord said to Moses, “Pass on before the people, taking with you some of the elders of Israel, and take in your hand the staff with which you struck the Nile, and go. Behold, I will stand before you there on the rock at Horeb, and you shall strike the rock, and water shall come out of it, and the people will drink.” And Moses did so, in the sight of the elders of Israel.
1 Corinthians 10:1-4
For I do not want you to be unaware, brothers, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea, and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, and all ate the same spiritual food, and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank from the spiritual Rock that followed them, and the Rock was Christ.
Moses takes the rod of judgment (which you have correctly identified) and strikes the rock (which Paul identifies as Jesus). From the Rock comes waters from which all who drink are satisfied.
John 4:10,13-14
Jesus answered her, “If you knew the gift of God, and who it is that is saying to you, ‘Give me a drink,’ you would have asked him, and he would have given you living water.”
Jesus said to her, “Everyone who drinks of this water will be thirsty again, but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him will never be thirsty again.The water that I will give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life.”
I am unsure as to how God can be more clear in telling us that the rod of judgment fell upon Jesus for our sins.
Note: When Moses struck the rock a second time, Moses was judged as unworthy to enter the Promised land. Why? Because the Rock is only to be struck once for sins. Moses acted in sin by trying to strike the Rock again.
Finally, we read these words in Isaiah 53:4-6.
Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted. But he was pierced for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his wounds we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned—every one—to his own way; and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all.
If this scripture doesn't answer the question, I simply don't know what would.
Yahweh Yeshua took the rod of judgment meant for us and in return provided the water of life to all who drink.
Does Isiah 53:4-6 support PSA? Nope.
What was "laid on Him?" The consequence of wrongdoing, whether called iniquity, sin, trespasses, offenses, or sicknesses.
Without the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness. (Hebrews 9:22) Thus Christ bought all humanity with His blood, but only those chosen and placed into Christ are redeemed, reconciled, saved, and made perfect.
And to restate what has been stated many times in the past, if the specific sins of specific individuals only had been laid on Christ, then all those ever chosen would be reconciled, but that is bogus because we have the ministry of reconciliation, begging the lost to be (in the future) reconciled to God.
What was "laid on Him?" The consequence of wrongdoing, whether called iniquity, sin, trespasses, offenses, or sicknesses.
Without the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness. (Hebrews 9:22) Thus Christ bought all humanity with His blood, but only those chosen and placed into Christ are redeemed, reconciled, saved, and made perfect.
And to restate what has been stated many times in the past, if the specific sins of specific individuals only had been laid on Christ, then all those ever chosen would be reconciled, but that is bogus because we have the ministry of reconciliation, begging the lost to be (in the future) reconciled to God.
I asked is there judgment without wrath? You say that lots of criminal penalties are void of wrath, so I point out that Paul says that the civil authorities acting in response to evildoers is an execution of wrath, as God's servants.
Do you think that's just Roman authorities? Or do you think that Paul drew that conclusion from the law?
Says who?
Yep. Smitten of God.
You left out that this wrath is directed to wrong doers, and not to the godly. Are you actually saying Christ was ungodly?
The Scriptures:
“All the fullness of God dwell in Him….”
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