The GOD that refuses to save

[Revmitchell]

Rev, does it occur to you that your specific teaching may be a hybrid peculiar to to you?
What is true is that free will assumes humans choose God or reject God's gift. They believe it is a general gift that men must reach out and take or reject. God certainly gives them the gospel message, but each individual has to independently choose.
The divergence comes in what happens after choosing or saying the sinners prayer. For some, the one confession seals the deal and salvation is secured. For others (and I believe this group is more intellectually honest) the struggle is in constant choosing to have faith or not have faith so as to lose salvation. This group takes free will to its ultimate source. These would be Nazarenes, Weslyians and Methodists as well as most Mennonites, Amish and Hutterites. I am sure there are more.
So, what I am saying is historically accurate, but perhaps not your exact experience.

Uh no, its not a hybrid. It is what is common. Even with those who believe one can lose their salvation your posts misrepresent them.

 

[atpollard]

Wait....you just said we are free to make a choice.

Reading back ... we are "free" (in quotes) to follow our nature. A rapist is "free" to resist or to give into his irresistible urges ... but because of what he is, he will inevitably choose to yield to those urges because he cannot do anything else. However, nobody else FORCED him to do what he does. The evil comes from within and he "freely" yields to it. What he does not possess, is the freedom to be "normal". He is what he is. A slave to his nature.

Only GOD can fix that, and that is not a human choice to make.

We are ALL just like that rapist. Our sins are just more subtle, but we are no less slaves to them.

 

[AustinC]

"So we are definitely free to make a choice ... and we ALWAYS freely chose against God."

Post # 91

Within the confines of being slaves to sin, you have available to you the choices of a slave. You are not free to pick sides and switch your allegiance to God. God must break in to your cell and set you free. Upon doing so, God makes a covenant with you whereby you are now his slave for life.
(If you want to see how this worked, read Exodus through Deuteronomy as the whole movement from Egyptian slavery to being bound in covenant by God is very clearly explained.)

 

[AustinC]

Uh no, its not a hybrid. It is what is common. Even with those who believe one can lose their salvation your posts misrepresent them.

I disagree. Care to share a Nazarene doctrinal site for us?
You want to imagine free will doctrine is noble and Godward so you balk at me because I don't paint the rosy picture you have painted.

 

[Silverhair]

How is it that you get things so utterly twisted and wrong, Silverhair? Honestly, you say the exact opposite of what I have said when you claim I have said it.
In my theology, based entirely on scripture, faith is a gift given by God's grace, not an action performed by man's will.
You twist scripture and say what the Bible does not say when you state: "Those that trust in Christ Jesus are made alive." Your statement is not only false, it is graceless and man-centered.
Look at what the text actually says so that you realize you are wrong.
Ephesians 2:4-5
But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—

So, notice and know this very carefully. You cannot trust in Jesus to be made alive. You cannot do this because you are spiritually dead in your trespasses.
Silverhair, the text says it is NOT you. It is GOD who makes you alive...not you. You don't trust Jesus first and then be made alive as you have claimed. You are demonstratably wrong. Entirely wrong and you have abused scripture in your statement. Everyone reading this can see your error.

God makes us alive when we place our trust in Christ Jesus not so that we will place our trust in Christ Jesus which is what you keep trying to push.

Do you skip those parts of the bible that you do not like or do you read them then just ignore what they say?

Paul does a real good job of pointing out the way of salvation if you will just read it without the calvinist glasses.

Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
Rom 10:10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

Real clear here, notice the condition “IF” you confess and why, because you believe the gospel message. Result you will be saved.

Rom 10:13 for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."

Do you see any restriction here except that the one being saved has to call on the LORD.

Rom 10:14
How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed?
How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard?
And how will they hear without a preacher?

Notice that you have to have a preacher who gives the message that the person hears and trusts and that is why Paul said Whoever will call.

Eph 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Paul repeats the same thing here, Hear the message, Believe the message, be sealed/saved.

Austin you got one thing right we are saved by the Grace of God.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,

Yep, there it is again we are saved by grace and why, because we believe. Austin just trust what the bible says and it will lead you back to a correct understanding of the way of salvation.

 

[Revmitchell]

Reading back ... we are "free" (in quotes) to follow our nature. A rapist is "free" to resist or to give into his irresistible urges ... but because of what he is, he will inevitably choose to yield to those urges because he cannot do anything else. However, nobody else FORCED him to do what he does. The evil comes from within and he "freely" yields to it. What he does not possess, is the freedom to be "normal". He is what he is. A slave to his nature.

Only GOD can fix that, and that is not a human choice to make.

We are ALL just like that rapist. Our sins are just more subtle, but we are no less slaves to them.

No no if what he is keeps him from making any other choice then he is not free. He doesn't freely yield to anything he only does what he is forced to do because of his nature. If that were actually true. Slaves are not free nor can they freely choose. Anyway you are all over the place on this.

 

[Revmitchell]

I disagree. Care to share a Nazarene doctrinal site for us?
You want to imagine free will doctrine is noble and Godward so you balk at me because I don't paint the rosy picture you have painted.

Again yet another misrepresentation. I didn't insist anything was noble or godward. I am insisting that you create these incorrect caricatures of others views either out of ignorance or for the purpose of working to make them look as bad as possible. No one needs to make them look rosy but neither do we need to exaggerate them.

 

[Revmitchell]

Within the confines of being slaves to sin, you have available to you the choices of a slave. You are not free to pick sides and switch your allegiance to God. God must break in to your cell and set you free. Upon doing so, God makes a covenant with you whereby you are now his slave for life.
(If you want to see how this worked, read Exodus through Deuteronomy as the whole movement from Egyptian slavery to being bound in covenant by God is very clearly explained.)

Trying to act like there are many choices within this slavery as justification for saying we freely choose so we are held accountable is absurd. The only choice that justifies being held accountable is to choose God or choose the world. Minus that choice the word "choose" means nothing.

 

[Silverhair]

People, it seems to me, are spiritually as dead as Lazarus to the things of God ... but we are VERY MUCH alive to the things of the World (those "little foxes" that draw us away from God and charm us with little 'gods' that sparkle and delight and promise so much, while only delivering misery and death as they draw us deeper into slavery to the world. It is as Romans 1 warns: men desire and God gives them over to ....

We are not corpses, we are "un-life". Animated corpses empowered by the opposite of life and drawn ever deeper into "un-life".

So we are definitely free to make a choice ... and we ALWAYS freely chose against God. (Hence the need for GRACE and DRAW and a NEW HEART).
YMMV (but mine didn't).

If man is completely unable to do anything in trusting God, then why all the warnings and the commands to trust in God. Sort of a waste of time and effort if all God had to do was zap you with the trust ray and then you would be a good little Christian.

I am always amused by calvinists that say God is sovereign and then maintain that this sovereign God of theirs can not grant man a free will to turn and trust the gospel message.

 

[Silverhair]

Why do most Christians reject Calvinism

There are only two possible answers to this question
1] If Calvinism is an error:
The reason most Christians resist it is because they have good discernment
2] If Calvinism is true:
The ultimate reason most resist it is because God sovereignly and unchangeably decreed their resistance for His own glory.

So if Calvinism is true, then God has predetermined most of His own children to resist His truth so as to glorify Himself. Which, if you read the bible, goes against Gods' stated desire.
1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth

The very idea that God unchangeably predestined his own children to reject his own truth for his own glory is so intuitively false that I don't need to refute it, I just need to make sure everyone understands that's what Calvinism entails so they know to reject it.

 

[Reformed1689]

So you trust what Paul says in one verse then your next post your disagree with him but you also disagree with God. So good to know that you calvinists have such special insight.
1Ti 2:3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
1Ti 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Nope, look at context.

 

[AustinC]

Again yet another misrepresentation. I didn't insist anything was noble or godward. I am insisting that you create these incorrect caricatures of others views either out of ignorance or for the purpose of working to make them look as bad as possible. No one needs to make them look rosy but neither do we need to exaggerate them.

Rev, your inability to show any evidence I have misspoke is noted.

 

[Silverhair]

Nope, look at context.

Yep, looked at the context and the text has not changed. still says "who desires all men to be saved".

You must have a different text in your bible if it does not say that.

Since the God gives the hope of mercy to all without exception, it is unreasonable that any one for any cause whatever should be precluded.

 

[AustinC]

God makes us alive when we place our trust in Christ Jesus not so that we will place our trust in Christ Jesus which is what you keep trying to push.

Do you skip those parts of the bible that you do not like or do you read them then just ignore what they say?

Paul does a real good job of pointing out the way of salvation if you will just read it without the calvinist glasses.

Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
Rom 10:10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

Real clear here, notice the condition “IF” you confess and why, because you believe the gospel message. Result you will be saved.

Rom 10:13 for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."

Do you see any restriction here except that the one being saved has to call on the LORD.

Rom 10:14
How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed?
How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard?
And how will they hear without a preacher?

Notice that you have to have a preacher who gives the message that the person hears and trusts and that is why Paul said Whoever will call.

Eph 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Paul repeats the same thing here, Hear the message, Believe the message, be sealed/saved.

Austin you got one thing right we are saved by the Grace of God.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,

Yep, there it is again we are saved by grace and why, because we believe. Austin just trust what the bible says and it will lead you back to a correct understanding of the way of salvation.

I bolded in red your false statement that is the exact opposite of what God says.
You have doubled down on your false statement, even though it is scripturally false.

But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—

Silverhair, you must stop misstating and changing what God tells you. You are making God a liar with your false statement.

 

[Silverhair]

I bolded in red your false statement that is the exact opposite of what God says.
You have doubled down on your false statement, even though it is scripturally false.

But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—

Silverhair, you must stop misstating and changing what God tells you. You are making God a liar with your false statement.

If I quote text from the bible and you disagree with that text it is not me that has a problem with the text it is you. You come across as a typical calvinist. Close minded. You ignore any text that does not fit into your theology.

 

[AustinC]

If I quote text from the bible and you disagree with that text it is not me that has a problem with the text it is you. You come across as a typical calvinist. Close minded. You ignore any text that does not fit into your theology.

You didn't quote scripture.
You state:
God makes us alive when we place our trust in Christ Jesus

The Bible states:
But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—

No matter how you slice it, you have falsely spoken in direct opposition to scripture.

 

[Aaron]

Be that as it may, the bigger issue of "predestination and free will" remains with the unanswered questions:

Are there people that "will" to be saved, but are not?
Has God rejected some that desired to come to Christ?

No. Whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

 

[Revmitchell]

Rev, your inability to show any evidence I have misspoke is noted.

If that is all you have then the inability is yours. Honestly is sad.

 

[Reformed1689]

Yep, looked at the context and the text has not changed. still says "who desires all men to be saved".

You must have a different text in your bible if it does not say that.

Since the God gives the hope of mercy to all without exception, it is unreasonable that any one for any cause whatever should be precluded.

If God foreknew that Judas would be a traitor, Judas became a traitor of necessity, and it was not in the power of Judas or of any creature to act differently, or to change his will, from that which God had foreseen. It is true that Judas acted willingly, and not under compulsion, but his willing was the work of God, brought into being by His omnipotence, like everything else.… If you do not allow that the thing which God foreknows is necessarily brought to pass, you take away faith and the fear of God, you undermine all the Divine promises and threatenings, and so you deny Deity itself!

Peter Sammons, Reprobation and God’s Sovereignty: Recovering a Biblical Doctrine (Grand Rapids, MI: Kregel Academic, 2022), 140.

 

[Silverhair]

You didn't quote scripture.
You state:
God makes us alive when we place our trust in Christ Jesus

The Bible states:
But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—

No matter how you slice it, you have falsely spoken in direct opposition to scripture.

Austin to say that you are disingenuous would not say what you are really like. Your posts duplicitous to say the least. You claim to be a Christian but your words bring that into doubt.

You have stated that I do not quote scripture, really, what would you call all the text that I quoted?

Do you skip those parts of the bible that you do not like or do you read them then just ignore what they say?

Paul does a real good job of pointing out the way of salvation if you will just read it without the calvinist glasses.

To save you the trouble of looking for it I just copied the scripture quotes here from post # 105. Care to deal with these or are you just going to ignore them again.

Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
Rom 10:10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

Real clear here, notice the condition “IF” you confess and why, because you believe the gospel message. Result you will be saved.

Rom 10:13 for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."

Do you see any restriction here except that the one being saved has to call on the LORD.

Rom 10:14
How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed?
How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard?
And how will they hear without a preacher?

Notice that you have to have a preacher who gives the message that the person hears and trusts and that is why Paul said Whoever will call.

Eph 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Paul repeats the same thing here, Hear the message, Believe the message, be sealed/saved.

Austin you got one thing right we are saved by the Grace of God.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,

Yep, there it is again we are saved by grace and why, because we believe. Austin just trust what the bible says and it will lead you back to a correct understanding of the way of salvation.

You are a one trick pony, you do not deal with scripture that is presented but just cast untruths. If this is what you have learned from your calvinism then thank God I have avoided it.