help.....I need to understand this....

[37818]

I've already dealt with the textual issue, you apparently ignored it.

You simply dismiss.

The time line is a matter of interpertation. Jesus instituted the rememberance after the supper, Luke 22:19-20. Judas was at the table, verse 21. John notes supper being ended. John refers to it as the supper, in John 13:4 and in John 21:20 in John 13:23. Judas went out after Jesus gave him a piece of bread, John 13:26. Early tradition wants to make Jesus' footwashing the footwashing before institution of the remembrance. But that is simply not what happened. That wrong interpertation creates this "textual difficulty." According to one of the rules of textual criticism the supposed difficult reading "being ended" should be favored.

And so responded,

So that tradition is wrong because that automatically solves your problem? Noted. You have no credibility on this issue because you can't accept basic facts and solely base your victory on what you deem to be a corrupted text which is bogus.

The D. A. Carson in his commentary on John (page 469) makes the point that the reading "being ended" the Greek could be interperted, "had just been served."

Now γενομενου in this form is used 8 times in the New Testament and the only time it is translated "being ended" is John 13:2.

Two facts from Luke 20:19-21. Jesus instituted the remembrance "after the supper." And Judas was at the remembrance. So John 13:2 being translated "being ended" would be correct.

Making the reading to be "during" because of John 13:4 and Jesus giving Judas some dipped bread to go out in John 13:26 is supposing a difficulty where here really is not one. Furthermore as I pointed out John 13:23 is referred to as taking palce at "the supper" per John 21:20.

There are actually 4 textual variants for John 13:2.
The majority text, γενομενου being 99.5% of the manuscripts of John.
P66 reading which has a spelling error, γεναμενου.
The reading translated "during," γινομενου, 0.3% of the readings.
And the the other reading claimed to be the same reading as γινομενου, γεινομενου.

 

[Dave G]

Why would God, who KNOWS that unregenerate man is DEAD IN TRESPASSES AND SIN, command man, to repent, when He knows fully well, He, the Life, must first enter him, the dead, so He can make him to will and to do of His good pleasure ?

Because we as men are still responsible to do as He commands, even though we will not ( Romans 1:18-32 ).

 

[timdabap]

Because we as men are still responsible to do as He commands, even though we will not ( Romans 1:18-32 ).

The question still remains: Do DEAD men know their house is burning and it's their responsibility to get up and get out? Can the dead rise on their own ? Can a bulb light up a room if there's no power coursing through to the wire and to the switches ? Or can a lamp spread light unless someone takes fire to the wick ? can the wick in an of itself be able to light up unless somebody first fill the lamp with oil ? Can a God who is Omniscient require action of someone He knows is incapable of that which He requires unless He first quicken that someone ?

 

[Dave G]

The question still remains: Do DEAD men know their house is burning and it's their responsibility to get up and get out?

Does this not answer the question?

Romans 1:18-32
John 3:19-20.
John 5:40.

Can the dead rise on their own ?

No.

Can a God who is Omniscient require action of someone He knows is incapable of that which He requires unless He first quicken that someone ?

Yes, but the incapability is an unwillingness.
Mankind is responsible to repent...we just won't.

That is the "inability" or "incapability".

The Lord is fully within His right to command something of rebellious sinners that He knows they will not do.

 

[timdabap]

Does this not answer the question?

Romans 1:18-32

Where is the responsibility, command, or call, to repent ?
That Scripture is a description of man's total depravity and the actions springing from that.

John 3:19-20.

Just another confirmation from the Creator's mouth, that man is dead in sin and trespasses. No light in them.

John 5:40.
{/QUOTE]
Affirms the deadness of man in sin, not their incapability.
They won't come to Him, because they have no interest in what He is teaching, saying, or Who He is.

No.
{/QUOTE]
Right.

Yes, but the incapability is an unwillingness.
Mankind is responsible to repent...we just won't.

That is the "inability" or "incapability".
{/QUOTE]
No. With all due respects, that is your private interpretation.
Man is not just simply incapable.
Incapable means there is a reverse side, which is that of being capable.
Like the term spiritually dead, means there WAS spiritual life.
Scripture says unregenerate man is DEAD, lifeless, unmoving, in sin and trespasses. (Eph.2:1)
He has NO LIFE in him. (2 Timothy 1:9-10)
He does not have the Spirit of God's son in Him, (Galatians 4:6)
The Lord MUST first be IN HIM, in regeneration, for him to be able to will and to do of God's good pleasure.(Phil.2:13)

The dead switch has no current in it, therefore, it cannot give light.
It is not that it is simply unwilling to give light, it has NO capability, at all, in any way, shape, or manner.
The dry wick cannot seep gas up for the match to give light to it.
It has NOTHING from which to draw anything. No oil in it.
It is not just incapable, it is absolutely powerless.

The Lord is fully within His right to command something of rebellious sinners that He knows they will not do.

I'm not answering this because if I do, I may be thought of as being sacrilegious.

 

[Dave G]

Where is the responsibility, command, or call, to repent ?

Specifically to Israel:

"Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,
15 and saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel." ( Mark 1:14-15 ).

Matthew 3:2
Matthew 4:17

Pertaining to all men:

Acts of the Apostles 17:22-31.

That Scripture is a description of man's total depravity and the actions springing from that.

Take a look at Romans 1:18-20, with the plain statements of the Godhead being clearly understood, so that we are without excuse.
That is why we are responsible.

Just another confirmation from the Creator's mouth, that man is dead in sin and trespasses. No light in them.

I agree, and it is also a condemnation from the Lord for the reason...
That we will not come to Him, lest our deeds should be reproved.

It's a heart issue, and one that we are willfully stuck in.