If Calvinism is true, then Christ died for God's sins

[Reformed1689]

And in your view God is responsible for the billions that are condemned to hell just because He can as they have no hope of salvation as God does not provide a way for them to be.

No, strawman. You are so dishonest.

In my view, they are condemned BECAUSE OF THEIR SIN. They do not want to be saved, they do not want God, they have no desire for God. That is their responsibility.

 

[5 point Gillinist]

Oh their in my Bible, what I am telling you is you are probably one of the worst biblical interpreters I have ever seen. You want to cherry pick verses, sometimes even parts of verses, ignore context, and exclaim that you are the bastion of biblical truth.

Those verses have nothing to do with free will. They have nothing to do with the ability of man to come to Christ.

Isn't it interesting how he stopped short of V.19-20?

 

[Silverhair]

In your view, God is irrelevant and could be an inanimate object for all it matters because it is 100% man who picks the god he wants as his object of worship.

In your view, your god is an idol of your own making whom you choose in hopes he gives you heaven. You are responsible for you and your god is ambivalent.

See how that kind of projection works, Silverhair. Since I assert it, how can I be wrong. And, if you show me wrong, I get to project it again and again and again, simply because I can, even if others show that I misspoke.

Silverhair, you keep asserting falsehood, over and over again, as though somehow it will magically be true. If you can do that, what could possibly make my statement about your belief inaccurate? Maybe if I just keep stating it over and over and over again, it will be true.
Shall we play your game?

And you just keep regurgitating the same lines. You want everyone to just follow the calvinist theology. The bible does not support that view but you persist in it and that is your choice to do so. I on the other hand do not follow that view and that is my choice. When I point out the errors that I see in your view you can either accept them or reject them, your choice. You have consistently rejected them so why should I persist in dealing with you on this matter?

 

[Silverhair]

So you're telling me that these verses teach free will?

Well if you do not teach that man has a free will then the only other option is that God has determined everything, as you calvinists love to say, but then you change your words when it is pointed out to you what everything is. Your theology is contradictory but you will disagree as is your right. But the reality is that you can not walk both sides of the street at the same time, although calvinist try to convince people that they can.

 

[Silverhair]

He reads the WHOLE verse. WHOM is important don't ya know?

I do.

 

[Silverhair]

Oh their in my Bible, what I am telling you is you are probably one of the worst biblical interpreters I have ever seen. You want to cherry pick verses, sometimes even parts of verses, ignore context, and exclaim that you are the bastion of biblical truth.

Those verses have nothing to do with free will. They have nothing to do with the ability of man to come to Christ.

I would expect nothing less from a calvinist. If God does not drag people to Himself then, according to calvinists, He is not God. That is not what the bible shows but you can just carry on in your delusion as it seems to make you happy.

 

[Silverhair]

No, strawman. You are so dishonest.

In my view, they are condemned BECAUSE OF THEIR SIN. They do not want to be saved, they do not want God, they have no desire for God. That is their responsibility.

But if they sin because God has determined that they do so as your theology requires and they have no chance of salvation because God withholds the faith so as to be saved, once again your theology requires this, then those people are condemned by God for something over which they have not control, as your theology requires.

Now when you look at man having a God given free will the man could have freely trusted in God for his salvation but instead he chose to reject Christ Jesus and thus is condemned because of his own choices.

 

[Silverhair]

Isn't it interesting how he stopped short of V.19-20?

Isn't it interesting how even the verses that you say I avoided show man has a free will.

Joh 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
Joh 3:20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.
Joh 3:21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God."

Notice the choices being made here:
men loved darkness rather than light {choice}
everyone practicing {choice}
does not come to the light {a chosen action}

Man either has a free will or God has determined what he should do.

But he who does the truth comes to the light {clear choice shown here}

Man can exercise his free will as is shown here.

 

[AustinC]

Isn't it interesting how even the verses that you say I avoided show man has a free will.

Joh 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
Joh 3:20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.
Joh 3:21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God."

Notice the choices being made here:
men loved darkness rather than light {choice}
everyone practicing {choice}
does not come to the light {a chosen action}

Man either has a free will or God has determined what he should do.

But he who does the truth comes to the light {clear choice shown here}

Man can exercise his free will as is shown here.

You are literally projecting free will into verses that never say anything about free will.
Here we see a great example of a man-made philosophy (free will) that looks for a verse to prop up the philosophy.

 

[Reformed1689]

But if they sin because God has determined that they do so as your theology requires and they have no chance of salvation because God withholds the faith so as to be saved, once again your theology requires this, then those people are condemned by God for something over which they have not control, as your theology requires.

Now when you look at man having a God given free will the man could have freely trusted in God for his salvation but instead he chose to reject Christ Jesus and thus is condemned because of his own choices.

No, that is not what I believe or teach. Study up on Reformed Theology before you attack it.

 

[Reformed1689]

I do.

Really, because in your interpretation and theology you kind of just gloss over it.

 

[Silverhair]

You are literally projecting free will into verses that never say anything about free will.
Here we see a great example of a man-made philosophy (free will) that looks for a verse to prop up the philosophy.

If you want to see determinism in these verses then that is your free will choice to do so, or in your case you have been determined to do so as you really have no independent thought.

 

[Silverhair]

No, that is not what I believe or teach. Study up on Reformed Theology before you attack it.

I have read up enough of that theology to see what it puts forward. The real difference is that I can and do look at it with an open eyes where as you have blinders on that coverup the things you do not want to see. Convenient for you.

 

[Silverhair]

If God doesn't drag people to Himself he isn't God? Please show me one single post where someone has claimed that. You will not find it. How dishonest!

Your whole theology is based upon divine determinism. God has to control everything or He is not God. {"God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of
His own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass;" LBCF} Why you deny what your own confessions state is beyond me but you do.

According to your theology God has picked out those that will be saved, correct? So now your telling me that those people could actually say no. They have on choice in the matter and even the faith to believe has to be given to them, once again no independent thought. So God has forced those people to love Him since under calvinism He that's how He shows His love for His creation.

 

[Silverhair]

Really, because in your interpretation and theology you kind of just gloss over it.

At least I trust the bible text. You on the other hand trust what some man has told you the bible says and then read the bible through that lens.

 

[Reformed1689]

At least I trust the bible text. You on the other hand trust what some man has told you the bible says and then read the bible through that lens.

Again, false accusations, some people would call it lying, I get my beliefs from the Bible, nowhere else.

 

[Reformed1689]

Your whole theology is based upon divine determinism. God has to control everything or He is not God. {"God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of
His own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass;" LBCF} Why you deny what your own confessions state is beyond me but you do.

According to your theology God has picked out those that will be saved, correct? So now your telling me that those people could actually say no. They have on choice in the matter and even the faith to believe has to be given to them, once again no independent thought. So God has forced those people to love Him since under calvinism He that's how He shows His love for His creation.

I do not believe in humanistic absolute free will, no. I believe in the free will of reality.

 

[Reformed1689]

I have read up enough of that theology to see what it puts forward. The real difference is that I can and do look at it with an open eyes where as you have blinders on that coverup the things you do not want to see. Convenient for you.

If you have read up on it you should be able to accurately articulate it, which you can't and do not.

 

[AustinC]

At least I trust the bible text. You on the other hand trust what some man has told you the bible says and then read the bible through that lens.

Do you?
I provided 6 pages of Bible verses and passages where God says he chose, elected and predestined people. Yet, here you are telling us that apparently God made a mistake and those verses don't actually mean what they say.

 

[Reformed1689]

Do you?
I provided 6 pages of Bible verses and passages where God says he chose, elected and predestined people. Yet, here you are telling us that apparently God made a mistake and those verses don't actually mean what they say.

Yeah, Jesus must not have known what he was talking about either when he said only those the Father grants can come to him. I guess he should have cleared that teaching with @Silverhair first....