"How I Learned the Doctrine of Election"

[Van]

LOL, I highlighted your man-centered mantra. As to Matthew 13 and the parable of the sower, we must understand the parable in light of what Jesus actually teaches and what the rest of scripture informs.

You keep presenting faith as a man accomplished work that God evaluates and then either credits as righteousness or discredits as not showing up. You have presented your view ad nauseum and everyone tells you that you are wrong. Feel free to be wrong and have everyone disagree with you. Just note that I disagree with you because the Bible disagrees with you.

False charges are the stock and trade of false teachers. Did I say the biblical doctrine of Election is man centered, or that God does it all? God does it all. Therefore the Calvinist posts a false charge.

Next, the Calvinist claims Matthew 13 does not include God's inspired explanation, but that too is yet another false charge. The explanation is what Jesus actually teaches:

Matthew 13:19-23
“When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what has been sown in his heart. This is the one sown with seed beside the road. “The one sown with seed on the rocky places, this is the one who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy;yet he has no firm root in himself, but is only temporary, and when affliction or persecution occurs because of the word, immediately he falls away. “And the one sown with seed among the thorns, this is the one who hears the word, and the anxiety of the world and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful. “But the one sown with seed on the good soil, this is the one who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and produces, some a hundred, some sixty, and some thirty times as much.”

Thus, contrary to Calvinism, the lost can hear the gospel and rather than reject it, they can embrace it, some partly some fully.

Calvinisms claim that the lost cannot understand the milk of the gospel is absolutely false doctrine.

 

[canadyjd]

Context does indeed determine meaning, God foreknows those that will freely trust in His son….

So, you declare you agree context determines meaning and then you immediately ignore the context of “Those He foreknew…” and replace it with “God foreknows those that will freely trust in His Son”.

When you change the words around to make it fit what you want to believe, it is a clear sign you don’t really believe context determines meaning.

peace to you

 

[Silverhair]

So, you declare you agree context determines meaning and then you immediately ignore the context of “Those He foreknew…” and replace it with “God foreknows those that will freely trust in His Son”.

When you change the words around to make it fit what you want to believe, it is a clear sign you don’t really believe context determines meaning.

peace to you

What did you miss in the text that I gave you. Those are not my words they are from Spiros Zodhiates a calvinist.
"to know. To perceive or recognize beforehand, know previously, take into account or specially consider beforehand, to grant prior acknowledgement or recognition to someone, to foreknow."

He foreknew G4267 (G5656)
Tense-Aorist
Voice-Active
Mood -Indicative

G4267
Thayer Definition:
1) to have knowledge before hand

God knows who will freely trust in His son. Why do you have such a problem with this text?

Because of God’s omniscience He foreknows everyone that is going to place their faith in Christ Jesus. The fact of God’s foreknowledge of who will choose to believe does not cause any person to believe. Everyone has the ability to believe in or reject faith in Christ Jesus.

This passage does not affirm why, or how, or, “on what grounds” God foreknew that some of the human family would be saved but just that those that are saved will be conformed to the image of Christ Jesus.
The plan of predestination begins when we trust Christ and comes to its conclusion when we become fully like him.



For those whom He {God} foreknew, G4267
He {God} also predestined G4309
{why} to become conformed to the image of His Son, {why} so that He {Jesus} would be the firstborn among many brethren

 

[kyredneck]

But did you have a relationship with that seed before you planted it?

Yes! I saved the seed from the generation before it, and the one before that and from many generations up the line.

Yes. Seen it. Good flic.

 

[KenH]

So are you claiming that only the elect were saved at the cross?

Yes. Christ is an actual Savior, not merely a potential one.

 

[canadyjd]

What did you miss in the text that I gave you. Those are not my words they are from Spiros Zodhiates a calvinist.
"to know. To perceive or recognize beforehand, know previously, take into account or specially consider beforehand, to grant prior acknowledgement or recognition to someone, to foreknow."

He foreknew G4267 (G5656)
Tense-Aorist
Voice-Active
Mood -Indicative

G4267
Thayer Definition:
1) to have knowledge before hand

God knows who will freely trust in His son. Why do you have such a problem with this text?

Because of God’s omniscience He foreknows everyone that is going to place their faith in Christ Jesus. The fact of God’s foreknowledge of who will choose to believe does not cause any person to believe. Everyone has the ability to believe in or reject faith in Christ Jesus.

This passage does not affirm why, or how, or, “on what grounds” God foreknew that some of the human family would be saved but just that those that are saved will be conformed to the image of Christ Jesus.
The plan of predestination begins when we trust Christ and comes to its conclusion when we become fully like him.



For those whom He {God} foreknew, G4267
He {God} also predestined G4309
{why} to become conformed to the image of His Son, {why} so that He {Jesus} would be the firstborn among many brethren

Additional possible meaning to the Greek “foreknow” include “to be previously aquatinted with”, which you left out of the possible range of meanings.

“Those He foreknew”. Is this statement referring to people? Or, is this statement referring to information about people?

Clearly, the passage refers to “those” God foreknew in relationship which is the basis for what follows.

peace to you

 

[5 point Gillinist]

So you agree then that man can not save himself, only God can save. What you still deny is that God saves those the trust in His son.

Where did he say that?

 

[Silverhair]

Yes. Christ is an actual Savior, not merely a potential one.

Christ Jesus is the actual Savior as no one is saved without faith in Him. He is the potential Savior because while the blood of Christ was sufficient to save all of humanity it is only efficient for those that freely trust in Him for their salvation.

 

[Marooncat79]

If Grace is dependent upon the faith of man, then grace is no longer unmerited, but an earned right by the sinner

 

[Marooncat79]

The gift is salvation not faith. The gift being faith is what you read into the text.

Not according to the Greek

 

[Marooncat79]

Gods' foreknowledge means that He knows who will freely trust in His son, do you deny this or are you just not sure what foreknowledge means?

hint:

the Biblical definition of foreknowledge means much more than knowing an event before it happens.

 

[Marooncat79]

You got tit wrong as per usual. We heard the gospel and trusted the gospel message and then God saved us. God put us in Christ Jesus because we believed. Eph 1:13
Whereas you calvinists have to hope that what you think is your faith is actually real. As you like to say, God gave you that faith so you would believe. So it is not even your faith is it.

Correct!

faith is a gift of God. Eph 2:8-10

 

[Silverhair]

Additional possible meaning to the Greek “foreknow” include “to be previously aquatinted with”, which you left out of the possible range of meanings.

“Those He foreknew”. Is this statement referring to people? Or, is this statement referring to information about people?

Clearly, the passage refers to “those” God foreknew in relationship which is the basis for what follows.

peace to you

The idea that you put forward is not required by the text, it is something that you require to fit your theology.
Even if we accepted your view it would still not require that those He foreknew were the so called elect of calvinism. God, because He is omniscient, foreknows all those that will freely come to Him and also all those that will freely reject Him. His foreknowledge does not require a personal relationship.

You asked, Is this statement referring to people? or referring to information about people?. What you seem to be missing is that the statement is referring to both. God knows WHO {which people} will FREELY TRUST {information about them} in His son.

 

[Marooncat79]

For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes. I can agree that man has to hear the gospel message and believe the gospel message before God by His grace saves them.

How can we call upon Him in who we have not already believed. Romans 10. Paul makes it very clear here that before we can call upon Christ, we must have faith to do so!

 

[Silverhair]

Where did he say that?

Read his posts. Question for you, does God save those that trust in Him or do they trust in Him because He has saved them?

 

[Silverhair]

How can we call upon Him in who we have not already believed. Romans 10. Paul makes it very clear here that before we can call upon Christ, we must have faith to do so!

The question is what do they believe?
Just as Eph 1:13 tells you, hear the gospel, believe the gospel, you are saved.

Rom 10:14
Note the order Paul describes here.
1) The saved are those who call on the name of the Lord.
2) They call {why} because they believe.
3) They believe {why} because they heard.
4) They heard {why} because a preacher shared the Gospel.
Working backwards, Gospel preached → Hearing it → Believing it→ Calling out to God → Salvation.

Rom 10:13 For "WHOEVER CALLS ON THE NAME OF THE LORD SHALL BE SAVED."

Paul makes it simple to understand if you just read what he wrote.