You shall surely die

[Darrell C]

On another thread @Eternally Grateful brought up (as a side comment) the wages of sin and (I take it) Adam's sin and the direct consequences.

I think this could be a good discussion. I do not hold that this death (in Genesis) is a spiritual death but a physical one. That said, there was also a spiritual death in that Adam was separated from God.

Genesis 3:17–24 Then to Adam He said, “Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, ‘You shall not eat from it’; Cursed is the ground because of you; In toil you will eat of it all the days of your life.
Both thorns and thistles it shall grow for you;
And you will eat the plants of the field;
By the sweat of your face you will eat bread,
Till you return to the ground,
Because from it you were taken; for you are dust,
And to dust you shall return.”
Now the man called his wife’s name Eve, because she was the mother of all the living.
The Lord God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife, and clothed them.
Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”— therefore the Lord God sent him out from the garden of Eden, to cultivate the ground from which he was taken.So He drove the man out; and at the east of the garden of Eden He stationed the cherubim and the flaming sword which turned every direction to guard the way to the tree of life.

What is the curse Adam was under due to his sin?

17 Then to Adam He said, “Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, ‘You shall not eat from it’;
Cursed is the ground because of you;
In toil you will eat of it
All the days of your life.
“Both thorns and thistles it shall grow for you;
And you will eat the plants of the field; By the sweat of your face
You will eat bread,
Till you return to the ground,
Because from it you were taken;
For you are dust,
And to dust you shall return.”

I would argue the curse is twofold.

The ground is cursed because of Adam's sin

17 Then to Adam He said, “....
Cursed is the ground because of you;
In toil you will eat of it

And because of Adam's sin physical death entered the World.

"Till you return to the ground,
Because from it you were taken;
For you are dust,
And to dust you shall return.”

In addition to the curse because of Adam's sin there was a separation.

The reason is not because Adam sinned but so that, having his "eyes opened" and "becoming like [God] knowing good and evil", he would not partake of the Tree of Life and live forever.


21 The Lord God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife, and clothed them.
22 Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”—
23 therefore the Lord God sent him out from the garden of Eden, to cultivate the ground from which he was taken.
24 So He drove the man out; and at the east of the garden of Eden He stationed the cherubim and the flaming sword which turned every direction to guard the way to the tree of life.

I view Man's relationship with God in the Garden as physical. When he was thrust out of the Garden that relationship ended, and man no longer had a direct relationship and communion with God (i.e., walking with God in the Garden).

"Spiritual death" is based on the thought that because God said "...in the day ye eat of it you will die" and because Adam did not die physically that day he must have died spiritually.

The first problem with that is this: if Adam had "spiritual life" which many think is recovered in the new birth, then we must equally say that this life is not eternal.

See the problem there? If Adam lost the life we gain in Christ—then eternal life isn't eternal. But that isn't the case, in my view. God is telling Adam that the day he eats of the fruit he will change his everlasting life to a life in which death will exist.

Secondly, the word day doesn't always refer to a singular day. Abraham rejoiced to see Christ's day. Which day was that?

Third, Adam's ejection from the Garden deprived him of what kept him from dying—the Tree of Life. That in itself tells us what kind of everlasting life Adam had. And that is physical, not spiritual.

Men did not have Eternal Life until Christ came, and this includes Adam. He might have had an everlasting life if he had not sinned and been thrust out of the Garden, but we should not confuse that with the Eternal Life Christ came to, for the first time—bestow upon men.

Christ stated that the "fathers" in the wilderness were dead. Paul wrote we were dead in trespasses and sins. Eternal Life remained a promise in the Old Testament and was fulfilled in Christ. Hence I cannot see any basis for imputing a condition of eternal, or spiritual life to Adam that is the equivalent of the Eternal Life men receive when they are baptized into Christ.

God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

We all died in Adam, and we have been born with human natures and minds "set on the flesh".

Did you deny that Genesis 3:21 Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil". and Genesis 3:7 "Then the eyes of both of them were opened" are sufficient to describe what happened with Adam?

How would you describe what it means to "know good and evil?"

God bless.

 

[JonC]

I view Man's relationship with God in the Garden as physical. When he was thrust out of the Garden that relationship ended, and man no longer had a direct relationship and communion with God (i.e., walking with God in the Garden).

"Spiritual death" is based on the thought that because God said "...in the day ye eat of it you will die" and because Adam did not die physically that day he must have died spiritually.

The first problem with that is this: if Adam had "spiritual life" which many think is recovered in the new birth, then we must equally say that this life is not eternal.

See the problem there? If Adam lost the life we gain in Christ—then eternal life isn't eternal. But that isn't the case, in my view. God is telling Adam that the day he eats of the fruit he will change his everlasting life to a life in which death will exist.

Secondly, the word day doesn't always refer to a singular day. Abraham rejoiced to see Christ's day. Which day was that?

Third, Adam's ejection from the Garden deprived him of what kept him from dying—the Tree of Life. That in itself tells us what kind of everlasting life Adam had. And that is physical, not spiritual.

Men did not have Eternal Life until Christ came, and this includes Adam. He might have had an everlasting life if he had not sinned and been thrust out of the Garden, but we should not confuse that with the Eternal Life Christ came to, for the first time—bestow upon men.

Christ stated that the "fathers" in the wilderness were dead. Paul wrote we were dead in trespasses and sins. Eternal Life remained a promise in the Old Testament and was fulfilled in Christ. Hence I cannot see any basis for imputing a condition of eternal, or spiritual life to Adam that is the equivalent of the Eternal Life men receive when they are baptized into Christ.

God bless.

I agree.

If we think of Adam as being spiritually alive and then dying spiritually then we redefine life (in the spiritual sense) from what is given to us in God's Word.

I think it best to simply keep with Scripture and affirm that Adam was created with a human nature (he was created man) and flesh (as opposed to spiritual). He had a human spirit.

Scripture never speaks of one dying spiritually. Dead (in a spiritual sense) is always speaking of those who have not been born of the Spirit (who do not have spiritual life).

In Genesis the actual word is dead (emphatic, that is, repeated). It is never said that Adam would die on the day. You are right that we cannot (or should not) overlook this.

 

[JonC]

How would you describe what it means to "know good and evil?"

God bless.

I take this literally.

Adam was in a state of innocence. When he sinned he became knowledgeable of good and evil. He knew what it was to do wrong.

 

[Darrell C]

I take this literally.

Adam was in a state of innocence. When he sinned he became knowledgeable of good and evil. He knew what it was to do wrong.

My two cents: Adam wasn't child-like in his understanding, and in fact was probably the most intelligent man ever created, lol. He had dominion over the entire earth.

Genesis 3 KJV

6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.


Adam and Eve had an understanding of "good and evil" as concepts. Here we see Eve knew what "good" was. She knew it was wrong to eat of the tree.

I would suggest that "becoming like God" was not an acquiring of intellectual knowledge, but rather acquiring an experiential knowledge. Just as Adam knowing his wife was experiential.

When they were thrust out of the Garden they went from an experience of "everything good" to experiencing sorrow.

Up to that point, only God knew what it was like to experience, to know grief. They would see one son murder another, for example.

God bless.

 

[JesusFan]

We all died in Adam, and we have been born with human natures and minds "set on the flesh".

Did you deny that Genesis 3:21 Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil". and Genesis 3:7 "Then the eyes of both of them were opened" are sufficient to describe what happened with Adam?

Adam had something happen to Him that caused us all to be born with sin natures now!

 

[JesusFan]

I take this literally.

Adam was in a state of innocence. When he sinned he became knowledgeable of good and evil. He knew what it was to do wrong.

he was in a sinless state, and when he fell, went to a sinner state!

 

[JD731]

On another thread @Eternally Grateful brought up (as a side comment) the wages of sin and (I take it) Adam's sin and the direct consequences.

I think this could be a good discussion. I do not hold that this death (in Genesis) is a spiritual death but a physical one. That said, there was also a spiritual death in that Adam was separated from God.

Genesis 3:17–24 Then to Adam He said, “Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, ‘You shall not eat from it’; Cursed is the ground because of you; In toil you will eat of it all the days of your life.
Both thorns and thistles it shall grow for you;
And you will eat the plants of the field;
By the sweat of your face you will eat bread,
Till you return to the ground,
Because from it you were taken; for you are dust,
And to dust you shall return.”
Now the man called his wife’s name Eve, because she was the mother of all the living.
The Lord God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife, and clothed them.
Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”— therefore the Lord God sent him out from the garden of Eden, to cultivate the ground from which he was taken.So He drove the man out; and at the east of the garden of Eden He stationed the cherubim and the flaming sword which turned every direction to guard the way to the tree of life.

What is the curse Adam was under due to his sin?

17 Then to Adam He said, “Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, ‘You shall not eat from it’;
Cursed is the ground because of you;
In toil you will eat of it
All the days of your life.
“Both thorns and thistles it shall grow for you;
And you will eat the plants of the field; By the sweat of your face
You will eat bread,
Till you return to the ground,
Because from it you were taken;
For you are dust,
And to dust you shall return.”

I would argue the curse is twofold.

The ground is cursed because of Adam's sin

17 Then to Adam He said, “....
Cursed is the ground because of you;
In toil you will eat of it

And because of Adam's sin physical death entered the World.

"Till you return to the ground,
Because from it you were taken;
For you are dust,
And to dust you shall return.”

In addition to the curse because of Adam's sin there was a separation.

The reason is not because Adam sinned but so that, having his "eyes opened" and "becoming like [God] knowing good and evil", he would not partake of the Tree of Life and live forever.


21 The Lord God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife, and clothed them.
22 Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”—
23 therefore the Lord God sent him out from the garden of Eden, to cultivate the ground from which he was taken.
24 So He drove the man out; and at the east of the garden of Eden He stationed the cherubim and the flaming sword which turned every direction to guard the way to the tree of life.

Define the scriptural meaning of death in the context of God's creation of Adam. It will cause you to ask the question, "if Adam was created in the image of God and after his likeness, and he was, why is it said that Seth was born in the image of Adam and after his likeness in Gen 5?" If Adam was in the image of God and in his likeness after the fall, then so was Seth, eh?

If Jesus Christ came into the world in the form of a man as we are, and he did, according to Hebrews 2, and he was sinless and a fit sacrifice for sinful humanity, what is different about us and him?

I maintain that it is given to us in the scriptures that define him. I will just post a couple that clearly tells us about him when he came.

John 1:3 - In him was life and the life was the light of man.

In John 1:1 we were already told that he was God. You cannot say that about any of us. So, that is different than us even though he is as much a man as any of us.

What made him God if he looked just like us? The scriptures in John 6 says that God is a spirit and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. This must mean that the life that was in his body was God and God is the Spirit.

Jesus said in John that, "I came that they might have life and have it more abundantly." Well he was talking to men who were alive so what did he mean? He meant that he came to give men the life that he had in him. This is God. This is he himself and it is his desire that one have him dwelling in them to be their eternal life. So, if the soul of man is the spirit of man and is eternal, and it is, and the body of man is physical and because of his sin he will at physical death be forever separated from the presence of God and eventually be resurrected, body and soul, and be cast into the lake of fire, where the omnipresent God has chosen not to be, and be forever forgotten of God, never again to know his presence.

Jesus said in John 6:35 that he is the bread of life and one must eat the bread to live. Bread outside the body does not do the job. Jesus said in that same chapter, "except you eat my flesh and drink my blood ye have no life in you." In John 8:12 Jesus said he is the light of the world. So to have the light dwelling in him and having a body and a soul from men connects him to both God and man in his person as one man in three persons, a trinity.

If any man that is born of a woman spends eternity with God it will be because he has God dwelling in him as his life and and as a member of his person.

Adam not only died the day he sinned by the Spirit of God departing from him, taking him from a tripartite person to a bipartite man, but he lost the glory of God, which is a shining light that covered him. We, who are in the image of God through Jesus Christ and being in his image will have that glory renewed when we receive the new body like unto the glorified body of Jesus Christ who washed our sins away by his own blood.

It is shouting ground when one thinks of it.

2 Cor 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

Colossians 1:27
To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

So, Adam died spritually on the day he sinned and he died physically 930 years later.

Jesus Christ, our savior, died spiritually on the cross when God forsook him and he died physically when he dismissed his soul from his body. No man can die spiritually who has the Spirit dwelling in his body and so Jesus Christ, the last Adam, died in the same manner the first Adam died.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

The penalty of sin is our spiritual death, which in the end gets us judged into eternal lake of fire if not saved!

yes,

Also called the second death. Which s unpardonable

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I am not saying physical death is a penalty in a legal sense. It is the wages or consequences of sin. Being that God is immutable salvation is not about changing what God said but saving in accordance with what God has said.

I am not saying we make our own payment.

I am saying It is appointed man once to die and then the Judgment.

The wrath we escape in Christ is the Judgment (which is Christ-centered) not the wages of sin (which is man centered).

I again must respectfully disagree

I think paul said it well. The wage of sin is death. the gift of God is eternal life.

As paul said, we who are dead in (because of) trespasses and sin, He made alive in (through) Christ.

We are saved from the penalty of sin, Which is death (not physical but spiritual)

 

[JonC]

Adam had something happen to Him that caused us all to be born with sin natures now!

I agree. And the Bible tells us what this something is -

Genesis 3:21 Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil". and Genesis 3:7 "Then the eyes of both of them were opened"

Do you think the Bible is correct, or should we add to Scripture something else?

 

[Darrell C]

Adam not only died the day he sinned by the Spirit of God departing from him, taking him from a tripartite person to a bipartite man, but he lost the glory of God, which is a shining light that covered him. We, who are in the image of God through Jesus Christ and being in his image will have that glory renewed when we receive the new body like unto the glorified body of Jesus Christ who washed our sins away by his own blood.

Hope you don't mind me looking at a few of these statements.

The first thing I would ask you is this: you take a three-part creation of man, and that because Adam sinned he "died spiritually." The obvious third "part" would be God's indwelling, correct?

So you are saying that Adam had "eternal Life" but then lost it when he sinned?

It is shouting ground when one thinks of it.

2 Cor 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

This is a reference to the glorified body, not the eternal indwelling of God.

Colossians 1:27
To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

A "mystery" is a previously unrevealed truth. Paul makes it clear that this Mystery, the Gospel, nor the riches of this mystery (the eternal indwelling of Christ) were withheld from all Ages past:


Colossians 1:25-27 KJV

25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;

26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:


We also see this mystery here:


Romans 16 KJV

25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

And here:


Ephesians 3:3-9 KJV

3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,

4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.

8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;

9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

(And I would point out to those who think the mystery here is Gentile Inclusion, that this mystery was not made known to the sons of men (all men), that includes those of Israel. Gentile Inclusion is taught in Prophecy, but like the Gospel of Christ, not given in understanding as it is for us)

And here:

The second half of 1 Corinthians 1 and all of 1 Corinthians 2 deals with the Mystery of the Gospel:


1 Corinthians 2 KJV

6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:

7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.


When Paul quotes Isaiah, it is in the context of the revealed Mystery of the Gospel, which is given unto us by the Spirit. Verse 10 is not speaking about how great Heaven is going to be, but is speaking about Christ Himself.


So I have to ask, how is it that Adam had eternal life when the One Who came to bestow Eternal Life had not come yet?

Paul is clear, the Mystery was withheld since the beginning of the world.

Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

So we would need to say that Adam had the Spirit of Christ, right? If that is the case, then how is it that Adam lost Christ? Does this not suggest loss of salvation?

So, Adam died spritually on the day he sinned and he died physically 930 years later.

Jesus Christ, our savior, died spiritually on the cross when God forsook him and he died physically when he dismissed his soul from his body. No man can die spiritually who has the Spirit dwelling in his body and so Jesus Christ, the last Adam, died in the same manner the first Adam died.

How could God die? How could the Son of God Die?

He died physically. Not spiritually. If He had died spiritually, that would mean He too would need a Savior, no?

God bless

 

[JonC]

Define the scriptural meaning of death in the context of God's creation of Adam. It will cause you to ask the question, "if Adam was created in the image of God and after his likeness, and he was, why is it said that Seth was born in the image of Adam and after his likeness in Gen 5?" If Adam was in the image of God and in his likeness after the fall, then so was Seth, eh?

If Jesus Christ came into the world in the form of a man as we are, and he did, according to Hebrews 2, and he was sinless and a fit sacrifice for sinful humanity, what is different about us and him?

I maintain that it is given to us in the scriptures that define him. I will just post a couple that clearly tells us about him when he came.

John 1:3 - In him was life and the life was the light of man.

In John 1:1 we were already told that he was God. You cannot say that about any of us. So, that is different than us even though he is as much a man as any of us.

What made him God if he looked just like us? The scriptures in John 6 says that God is a spirit and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. This must mean that the life that was in his body was God and God is the Spirit.

Jesus said in John that, "I came that they might have life and have it more abundantly." Well he was talking to men who were alive so what did he mean? He meant that he came to give men the life that he had in him. This is God. This is he himself and it is his desire that one have him dwelling in them to be their eternal life. So, if the soul of man is the spirit of man and is eternal, and it is, and the body of man is physical and because of his sin he will at physical death be forever separated from the presence of God and eventually be resurrected, body and soul, and be cast into the lake of fire, where the omnipresent God has chosen not to be, and be forever forgotten of God, never again to know his presence.

Jesus said in John 6:35 that he is the bread of life and one must eat the bread to live. Bread outside the body does not do the job. Jesus said in that same chapter, "except you eat my flesh and drink my blood ye have no life in you." In John 8:12 Jesus said he is the light of the world. So to have the light dwelling in him and having a body and a soul from men connects him to both God and man in his person as one man in three persons, a trinity.

If any man that is born of a woman spends eternity with God it will be because he has God dwelling in him as his life and and as a member of his person.

Adam not only died the day he sinned by the Spirit of God departing from him, taking him from a tripartite person to a bipartite man, but he lost the glory of God, which is a shining light that covered him. We, who are in the image of God through Jesus Christ and being in his image will have that glory renewed when we receive the new body like unto the glorified body of Jesus Christ who washed our sins away by his own blood.

It is shouting ground when one thinks of it.

2 Cor 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

Colossians 1:27
To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

So, Adam died spritually on the day he sinned and he died physically 930 years later.

Jesus Christ, our savior, died spiritually on the cross when God forsook him and he died physically when he dismissed his soul from his body. No man can die spiritually who has the Spirit dwelling in his body and so Jesus Christ, the last Adam, died in the same manner the first Adam died.

I define "death" in the context of Adam as in the curse God pronounced in Genesis 3:19 - "Till you return to the ground, because from it you were taken; for you are dust, and to dust you shall return.”

I view this as a physical death (Adam's Spirit does not turn to dust).

 

[Darrell C]

The penalty of sin is our spiritual death, which in the end gets us judged into eternal lake of fire if not saved!

Men are conceived spiritually dead. That is why they sin.

yes,

Also called the second death. Which s unpardonable

This is true, but the Second Death is being cast into the Lake of Fire, the place of everlasting shame and contempt. That is eternal damnation.

No man has life in the spiritual sense. Animals have a spirit but they are not "spiritual" in regards to God.

So too, men are not spiritual in regards to God, because they are separated from Him. The only remedy for that malady is Reconciliation, which was effected by God in Christ, and there is a specific point in time when that occurred:


2 Corinthians 5 KJV

17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.


Galatians 4 KJV

4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.


John 1 KJV

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.


11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.


The Word was made flesh 2,000 years ago. He came unto His Own, and His Own received Him not.

Those that received Him were given the power to become the sons of God.


This is what is stated about Adam:


1 Corinthians 15 KJV

45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.


Adam was a natural man, not a spiritual man. While the context of this passage deals with the glorified body, we cannot escape what it states about Adam. He was not spiritual, hence could not die "spiritually." He was of the earth, earthy.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Adam had something happen to Him that caused us all to be born with sin natures now!

Agreed. He was thrust out of the Garden, deprived access to the Tree of Life—that he not live forever.

It is access to the Tree of Life that gave him everlasting—not eternal—life.

Genesis 3 KJV

22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:


God bless.

 

[JonC]

I again must respectfully disagree

I think paul said it well. The wage of sin is death. the gift of God is eternal life.

As paul said, we who are dead in (because of) trespasses and sin, He made alive in (through) Christ.

We are saved from the penalty of sin, Which is death (not physical but spiritual)

Yes, we do disagree on that part. I agree with you until the last sentence.

I see the wages of sin as the consequences Adam faced due to his transgression as pronounced by God in that curse.

I also view the curse that we were under to be the curse of Genesis 3 (which is specifically a physical death).

BUT I do believe that there is a judgment in addition to this physical death. I believe this is what is meant by it being appointed man once to die (physically) and then the Judgment (for the lost, the wrath to come or the "second death").

In the end our views are actually more in agreement than they may first appear. We both believe man will physically die and are by nature spiritually dead and in need of spiritual life. We agree that God's wrath will be poured out on the wicked at Judgment.

I'm sure our differences also lead to other areas where we may disagree, and it will be interesting to discuss those as they arise.

 

[JonC]

he was in a sinless state, and when he fell, went to a sinner state!

Well, yes....of course. Before he sinned he did not sin. I absolutely agree with that.

 

[JesusFan]

I define "death" in the context of Adam as in the curse God pronounced in Genesis 3:19 - "Till you return to the ground, because from it you were taken; for you are dust, and to dust you shall return.”

I view this as a physical death (Adam's Spirit does not turn to dust).

the aspect of Him that converse and fellowship internally with the Lord died in Him

 

[JesusFan]

Agreed. He was thrust out of the Garden, deprived access to the Tree of Life—that he not live forever.

It is access to the Tree of Life that gave him everlasting—not eternal—life.

Genesis 3 KJV

22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:


God bless.

Adam also lost his spiritual aspect within Himself that allowed Him to commune with his creator!

 

[JesusFan]

Well, yes....of course. Before he sinned he did not sin. I absolutely agree with that.

he had no sin nature within him until he actually sinned, correct>