Featured The Pre-Tribulational Rapture

So admit it, it's a favorite issue to debate.

Being called a "dispy" in another thread sure brought back the old days, and it made me think, well, there's nothing for it but to start another thread examining the Rapture and when it is going to take place.

So I will just state that the Pre-Tribulational Rapture is the only view that leaves Scripture intact (meaning we don't have to spiritualize Scripture away) and doesn't leave one trying to work out the problems that a Mid or Post view creates. As far as those who do not embrace that the Rapture is taught in Scripture, you are welcome as well, but it's going to be a little hard to take you seriously.

As an introductory presentation I would like to draw your attention first to the subject of Resurrection, and one of the arguments presented by Post-Trib brethren: "the Rapture cannot take place prior to the end of the Tribulation because the "First Resurrection doesn't take place until the end of the Tribulation."


Revelation 20:1-6 King James Version

1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.


Is this the first resurrection?

Not at all. In a context of sequence the First Resurrection (unto life) is the Resurrection of Jesus Christ. The second is the Pre-tribulation Rapture (and hopefully you will understand this before this thread expires).

The third?

Revelation 11 King James Version

3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.


7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.

10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.


Kind of hard for the first Resurrection of Revelation 20 to the first one in a context of sequence, isn't it?

Particularly when the Two Witnesses are raptured right smack dab in the middle of the Tribulation (and for those who do not embrace a seven year Seventieth Week, please see Daniel 12 where there are 75 days added to the 3 1/2 year period that begins with the abomination of desolation, which itself begins at the end of the 3 1/2 year ministry of the Two Witnesses).


The word "first" found in verses 5 and 6 is translated from the word prōtos. Strong's Concordance states:

prōtos, pro'-tos; contracted superlative of G4253; foremost (in time, place, order or importance):—before, beginning, best, chief(-est), first (of all), former.

It is used in contexts involving sequence, and it is used in contexts involving rank. A few examples of a context of rank (all verses KJV):


Matthew 20:27
And whosoever will be chief (G4413) among you, let him be your servant:

Mark 6:21
And when a convenient day was come, that Herod on his birthday made a supper to his lords, high captains, and chief (G4413) estates of Galilee;

Mark 12:30
And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first (G4413) commandment.

Luke 15:22
But the father said to his servants, Bring forth the best (G4413) robe, and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet:


The Lord made the statement, "But many that are first (G4413) shall be last; and the last shall be first (G4413)." Here we see both sequence and rank. Those that came first (sequentially) will be last (in terms of rank), and those that are last (sequentially) shall be first (in terms of rank). So too, in Revelation 20, there is no need to demand a context of sequence to first, but to see that it is the type of resurrection that is indicated. To put it into easily understandable terms, the "first resurrection" is the resurrection of life, and "the second resurrection" is the resurrection unto damnation. The first resurrection is contrasted with the Second Death. Again, the "first resurrection" in terms of sequence is none other than the Resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Acts 26:22-23 King James Version (KJV)

22 Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come:

23 That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.


Daniel 12 taught of a resurrection:

Daniel 12:1-2 King James Version

12 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.


When the rich young ruler asked how he could obtain eternal life, this is likely what was key in his thoughts.

So, as a first argument, I suggest that denying a Pre-Trib Rapture based on "the first resurrection" of Revelation 20 isn't going to work. The Tribulation Martyrs that are raised in the first resurerction could be glorified, but it's equally possible—since there will be an extended lifespan among men in that Age (Isaiah 65:20)—that they will simply live long lives as they did when God first created the earth. The Regeneration Christ spoke of here in this passage...

Matthew 19:28
And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

... will fulfill the Prophecy spoken of in the Old Testament among God's promises of restoration of the Nation of Israel.

So whether there is a Rapture concerning the Tribulation Martyrs is not something I would be overly dogmatic about. I lean towards the view that they are glorified at this time. But if they aren't there is nothing that keeps them from simply living long lives.

So that is just a beginning to a discussion about the Rapture. In the course of the discussion I think some will be surprised at some of the passages that must be considered to come to a reasonable conclusion on this most wonderful source of hope for the believer.

God bless

 

"WHEN YOU REMAIN SILENT YOU HAVE SPOKEN"




God bless.

 

So, moving right along ...

Here is a verse that I am willing to bet has seldom been brought up in a discussion about the Pre-Tribulational Rapture:


2 Timothy 2:11-18
King James Version

11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:

12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

14 Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers.

15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;

18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.


If you want to understand what "subverting" means, think about the destruction of Sodom and Gomhorra. The word is katastrophē, and yes, it is a catastrophe when those of faith have their beliefs undermined by false teachers.

What does this have to do with the Rapture?

Glad you asked: if we think about this, and consider the understanding many have concerning resurrection, and in particular that many think there will only be one general resurrection—how in the world would someone be able to convince someone else that it has already taken place?

Bottom line—not very likely.

So I would suggest to you that what Hymenaeus and Philetus were trying to convince people of was that the Rapture had already occurred. That would make much more sense. This would be a resurrection that would still leave people around.

"The First Resurrection" had not been taught about yet, that would come roughly 25-30 years later when John pens the Book of Revelation. A little more than a decade had taken place since Paul first wrote of the Mytery of the Rapture in 1 Thessalonians 4, and just under a decade since 1 Corinthians 15, where he teaches about the resurrection body of the Rapture.

The Pre-Tribulational Rapture is a Doctrinal Position that for some reason has the habit of creating volatile discussions and emotions among some.

Why?

Some of the arguments I have heard go along the lines of "Well, those who believe we will just be 'poofed' out think they can live any way they want." This is similar to those who teach works-based salvation: they think because one embraces the Eternal Security clearly taught in Scripture, they will live with a "license to sin."

Is that true? Are either of those views true? Of course not. The Pre-Tribulational Rapture and Eternal Security don't change the here and now, nor the equally explicit instruction for holiness in our current lives. Those who do think they have a license to sin are not dependent on either of those views for sinning, and it is unlikely that we do not see those holding other positions carrying their own licenses. All believers are going to sin at times, and how that sin is justified in their minds seldom has a Doctrinal Position as the basis.

However, if Paul is addressing his Rapture teachings, and the resurrection in view here is the Rapture, then we do see that the faith of some ended in catastrophe when the truth was wrested.

Understand, I am not dogmatically saying this is speaking about the Rapture, I am just presenting this as one facet of the Debate for discussion.


God bless.

 

Thanks for the response, Austin, not much use to have a discussion if there aren't opposing views, lol.

As far as babies being raptured from a pregnant woman, I think it's an intriguing question. Given the fact that there is always a many/few ratio between believers and unbelievers, unprofitable's position is not as ludicrous as some might make it.

So the first thing I would like to do is ask you to address at least one of the points given in the OP. And I will address each of your points in a following post.

And sorry it has taken so long to get to this, but because you didn't quote anything from the OP I wasn't notified someone had posted here.

Again, thanks for participating!


Continued...

 

No, not really. Apocalyptic following Chapter three, contemporary through Chapter three.

We can agree that it is meant for the Churches, just as all the Epistles of the New Testament are, but it is also mean for believers throughout this entire Age.

And since it is prophecy, we cannot dismiss the teachings found therein. And since we know that Prophecy has a habit of having near and far fulfillment (i.e., Christ's coming being two-part; Antiochus Epiphanes being a near fulfillment of Antichrist and Christ teaching Antichrist prophecy yet remains unfulfilled) we can say without doubt that many of the events can in no way be said to have been fulfilled In the First Century.

And I think I will break this up in small responses, because I would like to make it easier for you to address each point.


Continued...

 

I have included what I addressed in the last post to maintain context.

The reasoning is syllogistic: if john is using figurative language we cannot interpret Revelation as literal.

That is what I call bad hermeneutics, lol.

If you are consistent in this reasoning then we do so through the entire book. Maybe Christ isn't really going to return. Maybe there won't be a new heavens and earth. See what I mean?

We interpret Revelation the same way we interpret any prophecy: we recognize literal and figurative language and seek to understand the truth both represent. Satan is not really a dragon but he a real entity that will empower a literal Antichrist and false Prophet (Jesus affirms the literal sense of both Satan and Antichrist).

One-half of the world's population will literally die, and that hasn't happened yet. Not as it is described in Revelation, in a 7 year period.

In this discussion, if you feel something I have said in the OP is a hyper-literal view, please quote that and address it. It is only in that method that we can get past general comments that are only opinions until the points are discussed.


Continued...

 

The exact date and time is unknown, yes, but that doesn't mean we can't place it in the timeline of Prophecy.

I have presented why it cannot happen at the "First Resurrection" as seen in Revelation 20. If you think it happens there, then an address of the points made is in order.

If you do not think it happens there, but happens in the General Resurrection following the Thousand Years, then you should present the reason why you believe that.

Simply denying there is a Pre-Tribulation Rapture doesn't contribute to a sincere discussion of the Doctrine.


Continued...

 

It can't be at the end of the Tribulation, because prophecy teaches there will be a great multitude that rises up against God at the end of the thousand years who will be destroyed, not in a judgment where sheep and goats are gathered and then judged, but immediately with the fire of God.

There is no event of physically dead unbelievers being feasted upon by the beasts and fowl of the air, The Supper of the Great God:


Ezekiel 39 King James Version

1 Therefore, thou son of man, prophesy against Gog, and say, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal:

2 And I will turn thee back, and leave but the sixth part of thee, and will cause thee to come up from the north parts, and will bring thee upon the mountains of Israel:

3 And I will smite thy bow out of thy left hand, and will cause thine arrows to fall out of thy right hand.

4 Thou shalt fall upon the mountains of Israel, thou, and all thy bands, and the people that is with thee: I will give thee unto the ravenous birds of every sort, and to the beasts of the field to be devoured.

Revelation 19:17-18 King James Version

17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.


This corresponds to Christ's teachings:


Matthew 24:27-28 King James Version

27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.


Luke 17 King James Version

26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.


27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.


28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;


29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.


30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.


31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.


32 Remember Lot's wife.


33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.


34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.


35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.


36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.


37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.


That hasn't happened yet, and we know this because Christ has not returned yet.

Now, lest someone think they can bypass Prophecy by denying the thousand years, let's take a look at the conditions following this destruction. The following is what happens after the Supper of the Great God:


Ezekiel 39:8-12 King James Version

8 Behold, it is come, and it is done, saith the Lord God; this is the day whereof I have spoken.

9 And they that dwell in the cities of Israel shall go forth, and shall set on fire and burn the weapons, both the shields and the bucklers, the bows and the arrows, and the handstaves, and the spears, and they shall burn them with fire seven years:

10 So that they shall take no wood out of the field, neither cut down any out of the forests; for they shall burn the weapons with fire: and they shall spoil those that spoiled them, and rob those that robbed them, saith the Lord God.

11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will give unto Gog a place there of graves in Israel, the valley of the passengers on the east of the sea: and it shall stop the noses of the passengers: and there shall they bury Gog and all his multitude: and they shall call it The valley of Hamongog.

12 And seven months shall the house of Israel be burying of them, that they may cleanse the land.


A seven month and a seven year period puts us well into the newly established Kingdom, the Millennial Kingdom.

Except a man be born again he shall not see the Kingdom of God.


Continued...

 

Peter looked forward to the Restoration of all things, however, Peter had not read the Book of Revelation.

Trying to deny the thousands years by making it figurative isn't going to work: even if it is not a thousand years as it states (and we have no reason to think it isn't), it still refers to a long time, lol.

Hence, trying to ignore the fact that the two resurrection of Revelation are two entirely different resurrection that have an intervening period of time doesn't make sense.

In the first, we see Scripture telling us that the Tribulational Martyrs live and reign with Christ for a thousand years. There is no period of time after the second, because the heavens and the earth flee:


Revelation 20:11 King James Version

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

In the first—we don't see the Great White Throne set up.

In the first—the unbelieving dead remain in Hades, whereas in the second they are called up before God from Hades:


Revelation 20 King James Version

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.


12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.


The Second Death, without controversy, distinguishes the Great White Throne Judgment from the First Resurrection. Just isn't open for debate, it cannot be denied.


Continued...

 

Who does that?

But we do notice, also, that both Paul and Peter do not have a problem making a context clear.

Sure, we will suffer tribulation in this world, but what has that got to do with the events of Revelation that we call The Tribulation? It is also known as Daniel's Seventieth Week, and the time of Jacob's Trouble.

Blurring contexts doesn't deny the Pre-Tribulational Rapture. Never has. Never will.

You do admit that the event of Revelation will take place, right? Would you also admit that The Tribulation is just a name for that period? Would you admit that "The Coming of Christ" can refer to at least two separate events?


Continued...

 

And ...?

Again, most will distinguish between the general tribulation and the Time period we call The Tribulation.

So that is a poor argument.

I would again ask you to confirm that you believe that the events described in Revelation are literal in the sense that they will take place. If you are idealistic in your beliefs, or Preterist, and believe they have already happened, just say so. I need to know where you stand on what you view as to what might be considered literal in Revelation.

All prophecy will unfold just as it always has, to the jot and tittle. There is always a literal fulfillment of all prophecy, regardless of whether it is described with figurative language or not.


Continued...

 

You think America is a "haven for Christianity?"

That is what Revelation is speaking about?

Say it ain't so, Joe. lol

The only haven for Christianity is in the hearts of the born-again believers who are members of the Body of Christ. A country that has to debate whether babies should be murdered or not, and want to have three bathrooms in public schools is a far cry from a "haven for Christianity."

And one of the problems in the Church is that it is so fractured that we resemble guerrilla fighters in small groups rather than being the Army of the Lord of Hosts. Taking potshots here and there at evil while the rest of the world marches onward to eternal separation from God.

We need to come to agreement, as Paul instructed the Corinthians, and that isn't going to happen if we do not seriously discuss the issues that separate us and bring a purity back to our Doctrine and Practice.


Continued...

 

You have presented no address of the points supporting the Pre-tribulational Rapture.

You have presented no support for another position.

You have simply declared there is no Pre-Tribulational Rapture and—I guess people are jut supposed to take your word for it?

C'mon, Austin, get serious. Address the points. We already have some cheerleaders showing up, so before this thread gets overrun with that type of nonsense—armor up!

Make sure you bring the Sword of the Spirit next time.



Again, I appreciate your response and look forward to an address of the points made in the OP.


God bless.

 

So you won't even address even one of the points raised.

I see you have "at the last judgment" highlighted. This is typical for people that cannot actually debate the points raised supporting the Pre-Tribulational Rapture: they refuse to address the points, then they go on to another one of their proof text.

Sorry, but this prooftext fails as well: The "Last Trumpet" is not the last Trumpet Judgment. That takes place well before the Tribulation ends. THe Last Trumpet Judgment is actually the unleashing of the Seven Bowl/Vial Judgments.

And let me borrow that rug you are standing on: the erroneous teaching that the Seal, Trumpet, and Bowl judgments are the same judgments, just described differently is one of the poorest excuses for an argument in this discussion. Anyone who is not trying to make Scripture mean what they want it to mean to support the Theological Systems (or in other words, the Doctrines) of men can see there are enough differences in the judgments to discern that they are not the same.

So seriously, if you aren't planning on following proper debate protocol, why are you still posting? You need to address my points. All of them, just as I have yours.

The idea that Revelation 20 isn't relevant to a discussion about Resurrection (and that is precisely what the Rapture is) is laughable.


God bless.

 

I have to get going, but will say this: you won't address the points raised because you know in your heart your doctrine cannot withstand scrutiny, nor are you able to deny my own position.

Give it a try, I guarantee you that I can take apart any argument you present denying a Pre-Tribulational Rapture.

It is the only viable option. It is the only view that doesn't fall apart at the seems.

And I notice you haven't even bothered to state what position you actually take.

So when does the Rapture take place, Austin?



God bless.