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Spiritual Truth and Doctrine II: The Meaning of Reconciliation
- Thread starter Aaron
- Start date
How’s about this….John 3:1-21
1 Corinthians 7:11 But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried, or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife.
What does it mean that a husband a wife are reconciled, but that they are restored to union?
Will @Silverhair and @JonC deny that union with Christ is salvation?
What does it mean that a husband a wife are reconciled, but that they are restored to union?
Will @Silverhair and @JonC deny that union with Christ is salvation?
I don't view Reconciliation to be accomplished unless one actually responds to the Gospel. I don't see reconciliation as applying to those who reject the Gospel.
That the Atonement covers all sin does not mean all receive and benefit from the Atonement. It is necessary to respond to the Gospel as God ministers in the heart. If one does turn to Christ it is then that the righteousness of Christ is imputed to the unsaved.
The Old Testament Saint had to respond in belief to that which God revealed to them as well, but they died still awaiting Reconciliation through the Atonement. They were justified in a temporal context, but that justification was not the imputation of Christ's righteousness, thus they "went to be with their fathers" in Hades, awaiting the Atonement.
The promise of remission of sin in an eternal context (everlasting) would not be fulfilled until Christ actually died. We see the promise given:
Hebrews 10:15-18 King James Version
15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
But a promise is only a promise until it is fulfilled. That promise could not be fulfilled until the New Covenant was inaugurated by the Blood of Christ:
Hebrews 9:12-17 King James Version
12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
The New Covenant had no strength, and was not in force until Christ died. Eternal Redemption was obtained through His death, not simply Reconciliation.
Reconciliation is what God does when He saves. It is a term used to describe salvation, rather than a distinct portion of salvation. Reconciliation, Atonement, Justification and Union with God happen within salvation. You can't one without the other/s.
Just so I understand your position, do you believe reconciliation applies to all men?
God bless.
Perhaps if I put it like this: salvation became available in an eternal context when Christ died. Prior to that men were not brought into Eternal Union with God, but awaited redemption.
I do believe that the Old Testament Saints received Atonement when Christ died. I believe He went into Hades (the side/domain where the Just of the Old Testament went) and preached the Gospel to them, and liberated them from Hades (1 Peter 3:18; 1 Peter 4:5-6; Ephesians 4:8). Though justified during their lifetime, they were not justified, forgiven, or reconciled while alive—in an eternal context.
That has nothing to do with a universal view. Because I do not view Reconciliation as something that has taken place for all men, simply that reconciliation is available to all men (as opposed to a hyper-election view, that there are those who do not have an opportunity to be saved because they are non-elect). That was the purpose of posting John 3:17. Not that the whole world will be saved, but that He died to make it possible that the whole world could be saved, because God so loved the world, not just those who would be saved.
God's love for the world doesn't negate His hatred for sin. But His hatred of sin does not negate His love, either.
God bless.
And that is exactly how I take it. There really isn't any other way to take it, lol.
Again, the reason for quoting that particular verse is to show that despite the fact that it states "the world," and that "the world might be saved" through the Cross of Christ doesn't mean that the Cross would save the (entirety of) the world.
In the same way, that God "was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself" doesn't mean that the entirety of the world was reconciled when God was in Christ reconciling.
He was in Christ to make the means of reconciliation available. The promise of the New Covenant was only promise and not fulfilled until Christ actually made the Offering that reconciliation, remission of sin, justification, and Union with God could be made everlasting, as opposed to the temporary and temporal quality of the provision given to men in the Old Testament.
God bless.
I know!
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Union with Christ is salvation. But the question is, when do we have union with Christ Jesus? Is it at the cross or is it when we trust in Christ Jesus for our salvation?
The Righteousness of God Through Faith
Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
Rom 3:22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference;
Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Rom 3:24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,
Rom 3:25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed,
Rom 3:26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
What is the gift of God?
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
How and why are we found to be in Christ?
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
You are being disingenuous in your use of 1Co 7:11 to support your view when there is clear scripture that you ignore. I really do expect more of you than this.
It is when we trust Christ. It is not, as some teach, something that has been applied in the past. Men are responsible to turn to Christ in faith when God ministers the Gospel to their hearts. It is at that point they receive Christ, are placed in Christ, and receive reconciliation.
God bless.
Where this would break down is that there is no prior relationship between the unbeliever and God when men are reconciled.
We are not restored to a union we once had.
Adam had a physical relationship with God and walked in His very presence. His means of everlasting life was the Tree of Life, not his union with God. We are not told that GOd departed from Adam, but that Adam departed from the Garden, and lost his means for everlasting life when that happened:
Genesis 3:22-24 King James Version
22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
23 Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.
This created the separation from God that is reconciled in Christ. However, that reconciliation is something new, just as regeneration is new. It is not something men had before.
Therein lies the Magnitude of the Cross.
God bless.
We were in Adam before he fell.
The point is the meaning of reconciliation. It means brought back into union.
Romans 6:3
Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
So, it's those who make a confession that are reconciled. No one is reconciled by default.
I John 4:19 We love God because He first loved us. This is clear indication but not a direct statement that implies we would not have the ability to come to God if He did not first love us. This love is not only expressed in the cross and resurrection but in the giving of His word (Romans 10:9-17). Our ability to come to God comes directly from His word as scripture directly tells us. The preacher of the word (those who share the gospel) are sent by God. Both His word and His preacher are His acting grace and making man aware of the need to come to Him.
I'm sorry but your understanding of that passage (I Corinthians 2:14) has been, unfortunately, taken out of context and then inappropriately applied to lost people in an errant way. If you read all of chapters 1-3 you gain the appropriate context. Paul when talking to believers (in chapter 1) was offering correction on their division which Paul said is worldly thinking. He goes on to compare worldly thinking to spiritual thinking. This worldly thinking can be applied to both believers and non believers. Verse 14 of chapter 2 can therefore be applied to believers and non believers. Further support of this can be found in verse 1 of chapter 3 where he says "But I, brothers, could not address you as spiritual people, but as people of the flesh, as infants in Christ." the words "flesh" and "natural" are synonyms and can be used interchangeably.
So it is the God's revelation of Himself both General revelation (Romans 1:18-20) and special revelation (the word of God Romans 10:17).
That is figurative. We were in him in the sense that we are his descendants.
It doesn't mean we were spiritually existing in him, thus fell with him.
Our sins are not the sin of Adam. Only he could work that sin. You will not be judged for eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, nor would you have if you had not been saved.
Romans 5:12-14 King James Version
12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
Sin entered the world when Adam sinned. Because Adam sinned man no longer had a source for everlasting life.
Adam is a reverse picture/type/figure of Christ: one is the reason we die, One is the reason we can live.
We should not equate Adam's means for everlasting life with the means provided through Christ. Regeneration (the receiving of the Eternal Life of God through Eternal UNion with Him) is new to man, and began with the first man to be baptized into Christ. John 14:15-23 makes it clear the disciples were not in Christ and had to await "that day."
The relationship in the Garden was every bit as physical as the relationship God had with all Old Testament Saints. We see God appearing unto Abraham, for example (Genesis 18). That is how it was in the Garden. God was literally with Adam.
And had Adam not sinned he would still be there today, because he had a physical/temporal provision for everlasting life.
Christ is the Heavenly provision for everlasting life. It is contrasted with the physical provision of those in the wilderness, manna. Manna, like the tree of life, provided physical endurance of life, not spiritual. Only by being in Christ do men have eternal life, and that began when the Bread of Heaven came down from Heaven, gave this living bread (His body on the Cross), returned to Heaven, and sent the Holy Ghost.
God bless.
No, it's real. We were in his loins. Like Levi was in the loins of Abraham when he paid tithes to Melchizedek.
You and I were created on the Sixth Day, bud. It is written God ended His work on the Seventh.
Creation is not still going on.
I have always consistently said that no man is saved prior to God's intervention.
I have consistently taught that in this Age it is the Comforter that enlightens the natural man's understanding that he can believe and then have faith (in that order).
I have consistently said that the natural man has no inherent ability to receive or perceive the spiritual things of GOd.
So where's the beef?
No need to be sorry, we all make mistakes.
So let's look at yours: Was Paul speaking to spiritual men (saved) or not?
Paul's point is that they are behaving carnally. Not that they were unsaved and couldn't understand.
If we take your advice and read chs.1-3 we see an amazing thing: Paul is teaching on the Mystery of the Gospel. In chapter two he teaches that understanding about Christ was withheld from men in the past and is now revealed to men by the Holy Ghost. This is the same thing Peter writes in 1 Peter 1:10-12. Men understand and preach the Gospel due to the Holy Ghost that was sent down from Heaven, the Comforter.
So, again, where's the beef?
I disagree with that: I do not believe men and women can be born again through general revelation. Neither the testimony of God or the internal witness of GOd in the hearts of all who are born will result in Eternal Redemption.
Eternal Redemption and everything that accompanies that (Reconciliation, Remission of sins on an eternal basis, and Eternal Justification based on the righteousness of Christ achieved on the Cross) is a result of hearing the Gospel while having our hearts ministered to by the Comforter that we might understand and recognize the reality of our sin, His righteousness, and our destiny apart from Him.
At no time have I ever suggested that the false view of the modern-day "Free Will" espousers is a legitimate doctrine.
Never.
So where's the beef?
God bless.
Again, it is figurative.
Did Aaron also pay tithes? Did he hand over physical substance to Melchisedec ?
On the contrary, I was conceived somewhere around December of 1968, and born on August 20th of 1969.
We are products of procreation, not Creation.
I would disagree with that on this front: God is still making new creations. We are something that we have never been before.
The regenerate Aaron did not exist until he was in Christ.
But I do agree that His initial Creation ended on the sixth day. And again I would point out that procreation is not the same.
You and I are products of procreation, which is a product of Creation itself.
God bless.
So I would ask, if you want to maintain consistency with this line of reasoning: if we were in Adam and that means somehow that we shared in a relationship with God and that this is what is being reconciled, wouldn't you also have to equally conclude that Eternal Salvation can be lost?
That is the logical conclusion of that line of reasoning.
If Adam had Eternal Life and lost it, the conclusion is Eternal Salvation can be lost, and that view conflicts with the clear teachings of Scripture.
God bless.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
The text of the bible is really clear
Rom 5:10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.
Through the atonement a relationship of peace with mankind is established which was prior to this prevented by the demands of Gods' justice.
We see this foreshadowed in the sacrifice laws found in Leviticus.The sacrifices did not save anyone but they did bring them back into a peaceful relationship with God.
You asked the question "do you believe reconciliation applies to all men?" My question for you is do you not think that it applies to all men?
2Co 5:19 that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself
Are not all men sinners, ungodly, without strength? These are terms that the bible uses to describe all men prior to being in Christ.
Rom 5:6 For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Christ Jesus died for sinners so that we could be reconciled to God. We are all sinners so you would have to conclude that He died for all men.
Rom 5:8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
We are also told that we can be saved from Gods' wrath through Christ Jesus.
Rom 5:9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.
Further we are told that the death of Christ Jesus is the means of reconciliation with God and that it is through our trust in the risen Christ that saves us.
Rom 5:10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.
Now for the universalist they would conclude that since Christ lives then all will be saved but that is not what the bible tells us is it? We are saved by God because we believe in the risen Christ Jesus.
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
Paul tells us what the gift of God is in Romans.
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Paul is pleading with people to be reconciled with God. In other words get into a right relationship with God. The only way for man to do that is through faith in Christ Jesus. So what Paul is saying here is we have to be saved before we can have a right relationship with God.
2Co 5:20 ... we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.
From Gods' perspective man is reconciled to Him through the death of His Son. From the perspective of man we are reconciled to God through our faith in the risen Christ Jesus.
If as Aaron says "Reconciliation is Salvation" then all would be saved as per
2Co 5:19 that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself
And why would it be necessary for Paul to implore people to be reconciled to God?