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Good In Bad People?

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SavedByGrace

SavedByGrace

Well-Known Member
Earth Wind and Fire said:
Oh did he do that for Job? Wasn’t Job an offspring of Abraham? And are you suggesting that Gods covenant with Abraham was somehow demonic!?!
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you must have problems with understanding!

What I have said from Hebrews 2:16, is that the Death of Jesus Christ, does not extend to the heavenly hosts, but only to those who are humans, from Adam.

Don't know how you arrived at what you said?
 
A

AustinC

Well-Known Member
Mark 10:18
And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone.

Except by the substitutionary work of Christ, my wretchedness is equal to any unredeemed person.
We are corrupted in our nature, thus we need purification, which is only in Christ.
 
Reformed1689

Reformed1689

Well-Known Member
AustinC said:
Mark 10:18
And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone.

Except by the substitutionary work of Christ, my wretchedness is equal to any unredeemed person.
We are corrupted in our nature, thus we need purification, which is only in Christ.
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I think Paul makes this clear in Philippians as well when he details his past life before his conversion. Everything he though he had accomplished, everything he thought he had done was nothing but rubbish.
 
Earth Wind and Fire

Earth Wind and Fire

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AustinC said:
Mark 10:18
And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone.

Except by the substitutionary work of Christ, my wretchedness is equal to any unredeemed person.
We are corrupted in our nature, thus we need purification, which is only in Christ.
Click to expand...
What is meant by purification? What happens in purification?
 
J

JesusFan

Well-Known Member
SavedByGrace said:
Good In Bad People?

Are all sinners really “bad” people who can do no “good” towards the Lord, because of their “depraved natures”? Are we to understand passages like Psalm 14:1, “There is no one who does good” (Romans 3:12), literally true of every single human being? In this same Psalm, verse 3 says, “All have turned away; all alike have become corrupt. There is no one who does good, not even one”, this cannot mean “every single human being”, as when this was written, many followed the Lord. In Genesis 6:5, 7, we read, “And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them”; yet this did not include “every single human being”, because verse 8 says, “But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD”.

This is not completely correct, as we will see from the accounts of the King Jeroboam.

In the Book of 1 Kings, we read of the wicked King Jeroboam:

“So the king consulted, and made two golden calves, and he said to them, ‘It is too much for you to go up to Jerusalem; behold your gods, O Israel, that brought you up from the land of Egypt.’ He set one in Bethel, and the other he put in Dan. Now this thing became a sin, for the people went to worship before the one as far as Dan. And he made houses on high places, and made priests from among all the people who were not of the sons of Levi,” (12:28-31)

And, in 2 Kings:

“When He had torn Israel from the house of David, they made Jeroboam the son of Nebat king. Then Jeroboam drove Israel away from following the Lord and made them commit a great sin. The sons of Israel walked in all the sins of Jeroboam which he did; they did not depart from them until the Lord removed Israel from His sight, as He spoke through all His servants the prophets. So Israel was carried away into exile from their own land to Assyria until this day,” (17:21-23)

And, in 2 Chronicles 11:15, we read:

“He set up priests of his own for the high places, for the satyrs and for the calves which he had made,”

In 2 Kings 14:24, we are told of Jeroboam;

“And he did that which was evil in the sight of the Lord: he departed not from all the sins of Jeroboam the son of Nebat, who made Israel to sin”

In 1 Kings 14, we read:

“7 Go, tell Jeroboam, ‘Thus says the Lord, the God of Israel: “Because I exalted you from among the people and made you leader over my people Israel 8 and tore the kingdom away from the house of David and gave it to you, and yet you have not been like my servant David, who kept my commandments and followed me with all his heart, doing only that which was right in my eyes, 9 but you have done evil above all who were before you and have gone and made for yourself other gods and metal images, provoking me to anger, and have cast me behind your back, 10 therefore behold, I will bring harm upon the house of Jeroboam and will cut off from Jeroboam every male, both bond and free in Israel, and will burn up the house of Jeroboam, as a man burns up dung until it is all gone. 11 Anyone belonging to Jeroboam who dies in the city the dogs shall eat, and anyone who dies in the open country the birds of the heavens shall eat, for the Lord has spoken it.”’ 12 Arise therefore, go to your house. When your feet enter the city, the child shall die. 13 And all Israel shall mourn for him and bury him, for he only of Jeroboam shall come to the grave, because in him there is found something pleasing to the Lord, the God of Israel, in the house of Jeroboam. 14 Moreover, the Lord will raise up for himself a king over Israel who shall cut off the house of Jeroboam today. And henceforth, 15 the Lord will strike Israel as a reed is shaken in the water, and root up Israel out of this good land that he gave to their fathers and scatter them beyond the Euphrates, because they have made their Asherim, provoking the Lord to anger. 16 And he will give Israel up because of the sins of Jeroboam, which he sinned and made Israel to sin.”

What is very interesting in this passage of doom, is what God says in verse 13:

“And all Israel shall mourn for him and bury him, for he only of Jeroboam shall come to the grave, because in him there is found something pleasing to the Lord, the God of Israel, in the house of Jeroboam”

In all of Jeroboam’ many evil sins, “there is found something pleasing to the Lord”. The KJV reads, “some good thing”.

There are some who teach, that fallen humans are not capable of “doing any good”, and some go as far as saying, that they are “haters of God”. There is no evidence in the accounts that we read of King Jeroboam, to say that he “loved the Lord”, in fact, he made sure that he caused God’s people, Israel, to rebel and sin against the Lord, to “provoke Him to anger”. Yet, also in this wicked and evil, godless person, there was, “something pleasing to the Lord”.

In fact, Acts 10:34-35 clearly says;

“Then Peter began to speak: "In truth, I understand that God doesn't show favoritism, but in every nation the person who fears Him and does righteousness is acceptable to Him”

It is clear, that there are people who “fear” (phobeō, also used for “to stand in awe of”, “to have great respect for”, “reverence”) the Lord, even though they might not be “believers” and “follow” Him; who can “do righteousness” which is “acceptable” to the Lord.

“He that feareth him - This is put for piety toward God in general” (Barnes)

Can this include even the Roman Catholic nuns and monks? Who might not be “born again believers”, but do things that are “pleasing to the Lord”? They are not “haters” of God. However, their “good works” and “life-style”, cannot “merit” them salvation, as we are not Justified by our “works”.
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Total depravity does not mean that we always will be doing the worst things, that we cannot do any good works, its just that sinners will never do anything without being motivated for "what they can get" out of it, and that none will seek the true God, but have own self made religion of the god of their own making!
 
A

AustinC

Well-Known Member
Earth Wind and Fire said:
What is meant by purification? What happens in purification?
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We are washed, made clean. Read of Jesus washing the disciples feet before the last supper. There he was establishing them as priests who were clean because the High Priest (himself) is clean.
It is only in Christ that we are clean before God. If God has not redeemed us and placed us in Christ...we are not clean.

Now, humans can do things that benefit themselves and consequently society. Their actions of care for others can often exceed the actions of Christians. This does not mean they are good people. It does mean that God uses their actions for good. But, the unredeemed person will always be acting in self interest. The redeemed may act in self-interest, but the redeemed can also act entirely in the interest of Christ,which is not possible for the unredeemed.
 
SavedByGrace

SavedByGrace

Well-Known Member
JesusFan said:
Total depravity does not mean that we always will be doing the worst things, that we cannot do any good works, its just that sinners will never do anything without being motivated for "what they can get" out of it, and that none will seek the true God, but have own self made religion of the god of their own making!
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the point that I am making in the OP, is that here we have a wicked king, who did everything to anger the Lord, and made the people of Israel worship false gods, and truned them against the God of the Bible; and yet it says that "somthing pleased the Lord" in him?

There are some from your camp of theology, who say that all the so called non elect, are God haters, and can never do anything that is "pleasing" to the Lord. The passages of Jeroboam shows this to be wrong
 
Earth Wind and Fire

Earth Wind and Fire

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JesusFan said:
Total depravity does not mean that we always will be doing the worst things, that we cannot do any good works, its just that sinners will never do anything without being motivated for "what they can get" out of it, and that none will seek the true God, but have own self made religion of the god of their own making!
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Honestly I don’t see how being motivated by what you can get out of it! After all there are rewards both here and in heaven to consider. But if the opinion is that we will all turn into Puritans after regeneration, then I disagree. You will continue to have temptation, you will still sin, you will continue to do evil things… that is man’s fallen nature , evidence Kings David & Saul, Lot, The Rich Young Man who Jesus spoke to, etc. in this world, there is always great evil being perpetuated by people claiming Christ… so again, are they saved or are they going to hell?
 
Earth Wind and Fire

Earth Wind and Fire

Well-Known Member
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AustinC said:
We are washed, made clean. Read of Jesus washing the disciples feet before the last supper. There he was establishing them as priests who were clean because the High Priest (himself) is clean.
It is only in Christ that we are clean before God. If God has not redeemed us and placed us in Christ...we are not clean.

Now, humans can do things that benefit themselves and consequently society. Their actions of care for others can often exceed the actions of Christians. This does not mean they are good people. It does mean that God uses their actions for good. But, the unredeemed person will always be acting in self interest. The redeemed may act in self-interest, but the redeemed can also act entirely in the interest of Christ,which is not possible for the unredeemed.
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Can you show me scripture to prove that the unredeemed can not act in Christs behalf? Are you familiar with Emperor Constantine?
 
SavedByGrace

SavedByGrace

Well-Known Member
Reformed1689 said:
Are they really born again? There is the question.
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in your theology, can a truly saved person ever "backslide"?

King David was personally chosen by God, of whom it is said, "“But now your kingdom shall not continue. The Lord has sought for Himself a man after His own heart” (1 Sam. 13:14). we all know of the GREAT SINS that David committed, and caused others to commit! Was David ever "saved", will he be in heaven?
 
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