Spiritual Truth and Doctrine II: The Meaning of Reconciliation

[Darrell C]

The lead singer of Caedmen's Call, Derek Webb, has rejected the salvation found in Christ and has publicly repudiated the faith and has been a vocal atheist.

Some will say he was never really saved, some will say he is still saved but has just lost rewards.

Can I first point out that you are seeking to support your position outside of Scripture? And this based on the experience of someone who claimed to be a Christian?

I am a musician (I played Metal and Rock in the 90s), and I know a little about the workings of a band, both before I was saved and after. Collaboration between 4-5 guys almost always brings with it differing views. After I was saved I rejoined with a couple guys that were former bandmates of the same band, and to my great joy they had been saved prior to my own conversion.

Well, it didn't work out, because one was charismatic and I am not, and due to some extracurricular activity of one of them (and I won't say who it was, just that his name began Darrel, er, I mean D) a conflict arose and we ceased jamming.

Since then, one of them (and his name began with B, in case you're wondering) has returned to secular music, and from certain indications may be smoking dope and drinking again. He went from a pretty solid Baptist to at this time considering joining the Catholic Church (according to his ex-wife, who left him or he left her, I don't know, I just know that after many years of marriage it was over last time I heard). His shift in doctrine came after he attended a seminary, where he was taught (or came to the conclusion) that philosophy was more important than Theology.

Now, can anyone say any of the three of us were in fact saved? If we had to guess, what would we base our guess on?

If you said the fruit you would be right, but that's not entirely conclusive. A young, immature Christian can and will sin, and fail to produce fruit. You don't get fruit from a seed.

You say...

Some will say he was never really saved, some will say he is still saved but has just lost rewards.

... as though you dismiss the possibilities, but in fact those are the only two real possibilities.

And I would not stop at "he has just lost rewards, because the wages of sin have always been death, and while this Creation exists it will always be the wages reaped for sin.

That includes Christians.

Again—that includes Christians.

Remember Ananias and Sapphira. Remember the Corinthian believers who died because they partook of Communion unworthily.

Something to think about is this: of you think that physical death in the Old Testament meant Eternal Separation, think again. The means of remission was temporal, the benefits of remission was temporal and temporary, so why would we conclude that because men were put to death for their sin that means they will also suffer Eternal Separation? I think the fact that even Christians suffer this punishment is a good reason not to draw that conclusion.

So for this singer of this band, the assumption is that because he was singing for a Christian group he was saved. First mistake. Bands will fill positions based on need, and will overlook quite a bit to fill those positions. Sadly, many churches do the same.

Was he saved? Maybe. Good chance he was. If he was, despite your attempt to dismiss it, he faces temporal judgment from God. He might be put to death physically, in other words. That doesn't mean he will face Eternal Judgment.

If he wasn't saved, well what do we see?


2 Peter 2:20-22 King James Version

22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.


So why would be surprised?

Because we think someone singing for a "Christian Band" must be saved?

Again, that is trying to validate Scripture from experience, and it simply won't hold up.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

I do not know and I can not judge.

You can know and you are to judge.


1 John 5:11-13 King James Version

11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.


Is Paul wrong? Is the Holy Spirit that directed his teaching wrong?

Please answer if you feel they are.

Has God given us Eternal Life or not?

Is this life in His Son, and not in our deeds and actions?

Does he that has Christ have life?

Do those who do not have the Son not have life?

Did Paul write this so we can know we have eternal life, not that we might get it if we do not turn away?


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

What I do know is that apostasy is spoken of as a real possibility in the bible so I view it as a real possibility.

So what passages speak of apostasy?

Do they show that it is a born again eternally indwelt believer committing this apostasy?

I can answer that for you: no passage of Scripture teaches born again believers committing apostasy.

Sin, yes. Apostasy, no.

Christians will suffer judgment for sin, but not eternal judgment. That is made clear explicitly, and dismisses the implicit teaching the L.O.S.T. present.

Here is the basis for what you earlier dismissed:


1 Corinthians 3:11-15 King James Version

11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;

13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.


Yes, a Christian can fall into sin and lose his reward, but he will remain saved.

This is why we contend with false teachers, for the benefit of our brethren, that they not fall into judgment.

As long as we are in Christ we have eternal security but only as long as we are.

Sorry, but you will never support that with Scripture.

It is the exact opposite of what Scripture teaches, and I will try to help you with that if I can. Because it matters to me that you are placing faith only in Christ. If we think we can lose the salvation He came to bestow then we are not trusting fully in that salvation but in ourselves.

And I want you to understand, that I am in no way questioning your salvation. One can be saved and take this position. It will not change the eternal nature of salvation in Christ but will hinder you in your walk with Christ.

And of course, I know the burden is on me to show you why I take that view, and I am more than happy to do so. Don't get upset with me, as we can discuss it as brothers, and hopefully let Scripture be the final say between us.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Sanctified equates to being Holy. From the view of God, those that have trusted in Christ Jesus are Holy but from where we, as still sinful man, stand we are being made Holy. As Christians we are to grow in our sanctification, become more Christ like. We will be like Christ, holy, when we are in heaven but not until then.

As I had said before, as long as we are in Christ we are saved but if one rejects Christ Jesus then they have rejected the salvation they once had.

Some people hold to the OSAS idea as biblical, I do not. I see verses that tell me that people can and some do fall away and in real life we see people that have rejected their faith or have turned from a true faith in the Son to a false one. My sister in law was turned away to Mormonism.

In order for someone to fall away they have to have at one time believed. You can not fall from a place you have not been.

Peter gives a clear warning to believers that they can be led away into error. 2Pe 3:17 If one rejects faith for a works salvation do you think they are still saved? Gal 5:4 would say no.

I read Heb 6:4-6 and see a clear description that a believer can actually fall away. For someone to reject the faith they once had they have to now think it is false.

Sanctification is taught in both a Progressive and a Positional manner in Scripture. Yes, we are sanctified positionally from the eternal perspective:


Hebrews 10:10 King James Version

10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.


And yes we are sanctified in our daily conversation:


1 Thessalonians 5:23
And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.



We just have to be careful we do not confuse the context.

That is the primary thrust of the Writer of Hebrews in Chapter Ten: to contrast the temporal (the Covenant of Law) with the Eternal (the New Covenant).

I will look at your recent post to see if you have answered my question.


God bless.

 

[Silverhair]

This is a parallel passage to Jude:


Jude King James Version


3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.



Both Peter and Jude make it clear who it is that is being spoken of: false teachers. Men ordained to Eternal Judgment. Deniers of Jesus Christ. This is the same structure of Hebrews 10:26-29: a contrast between saved and unsaved, not between Christians who fall away and Christians that do not.

Jude goes on:


12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;

13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.


They have a reservation in Hell, Silverhair. Their fate has already been sealed.

So we do not see Peter speaking about Christians who fall away, but false teachers that God already knows will end in Eternal Judgment.

And we are to contend with men like that. Contend for the Faith that delivered once and for all. That faith is in Christ and when we believe on Him we receive Eternal Life:


1 John 5:11-13 King James Version

11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.


God has given us eternal life, not—God will give us eternal life if we make it through without falling away.

This eternal life is because we are in Him in Eternal Union. If we have the Son, we have eternal life.

John is writing that men might believe on His Name and thus have eternal life. And that we, those of us that have Christ—already have eternal life.


Continued...

I am sure you have dealt with people that you say are L.O.S.T. but since I have never heard of them I really do not know what they think. You think you can rebut whatever they say, that is good for you.
I still trust what I see the bible saying and whereas you hold to OSAS I do not. You believe in eternal security so do I. The difference is that you say it starts when they trust in Christ and I say it starts when believes are in heaven with Christ. Your think man can not reject his salvation and I believe man can reject his salvation.

We could go back and forth on this for a number of posts but you will still think the same way and so will I.

My question for you is, why do you think someone that has rejected faith in Christ Jesus would want to be in heaven and further why do you think God who is love would want to force them to be there with Him?

 

[Silverhair]

So what passages speak of apostasy?

Do they show that it is a born again eternally indwelt believer committing this apostasy?

I can answer that for you: no passage of Scripture teaches born again believers committing apostasy.

Sin, yes. Apostasy, no.

Christians will suffer judgment for sin, but not eternal judgment. That is made clear explicitly, and dismisses the implicit teaching the L.O.S.T. present.

Here is the basis for what you earlier dismissed:


1 Corinthians 3:11-15 King James Version

11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;

13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.


Yes, a Christian can fall into sin and lose his reward, but he will remain saved.

This is why we contend with false teachers, for the benefit of our brethren, that they not fall into judgment.




Sorry, but you will never support that with Scripture.

It is the exact opposite of what Scripture teaches, and I will try to help you with that if I can. Because it matters to me that you are placing faith only in Christ. If we think we can lose the salvation He came to bestow then we are not trusting fully in that salvation but in ourselves.

And I want you to understand, that I am in no way questioning your salvation. One can be saved and take this position. It will not change the eternal nature of salvation in Christ but will hinder you in your walk with Christ.

And of course, I know the burden is on me to show you why I take that view, and I am more than happy to do so. Don't get upset with me, as we can discuss it as brothers, and hopefully let Scripture be the final say between us.


God bless.

Yes, I agree that only God is eternal and as long as we are in Christ we are eternal. But note the condition “in Christ”. When someone rejects Christ Jesus he is no longer in Christ is he.

Please note what Joh 6:54 says Joh 6:54 Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.

Whoever eats & whoever drinks has eternal life which are present tense {continuing action}. But note the condition as we see in the prior verse. If you do not do this then you are not part of Christ Jesus.

Those that believe in Christ Jesus will partake of the body & the blood but if you latter reject Him you would not. As we see in Joh 6:47 Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life. So we see here that faith is the condition for eternal life.

 

[Aaron]

There is a vast distance between the Son paying the sin debt of the whole world and someone having their sins covered because they have trusted in Christ Jesus.

Then it should be easy to explain. So far you've done a dismal job.

There is only one way to peace with God. Sins have been removed. But you're saying, in contradiction to every word of every apostle, that one can reconciled, and yet be in their sins.

 

[Darrell C]

I am sure you have dealt with people that you say are L.O.S.T. but since I have never heard of them I really do not know what they think.

You have heard of them. I just quoted two inspired writers speaking about them.

They are the Loss of Salvation Teachers.

That doesn't mean they are all lost, because I think it is made clear that false teachers can lead those that are truly saved astray. That is why we are to seek to bring them back into the fold:


Galatians 6:1
Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.


And you have made no comment on the fact that Peter is speaking about false teachers (who, by the way, are compared to and with the false prophets of the Old Testament, again showing that a specific group is in view in the following teaching). He begins the teaching making that clear.

You insert believers in place of false teachers. That's just a fact, brother.

You think you can rebut whatever they say, that is good for you.

It's not me that makes the rebuttal, it is the Word of God. I am just the waiter bringing it to the table.

I still trust what I see the bible saying and whereas you hold to OSAS I do not.

So Christ will leave and forsake you if you do not maintain your salvation by doing certain things?

Can you just tell me how you arrive at concluding that those in view in your proof text go from being false teachers that have a reservation to Hell to born again believers that go astray?


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

You believe in eternal security so do I.

I just don't see that: what you are teaching is a chance for eternal salvation if one makes the grade.

That isn't the Eternal Life Christ came to give.

And you ignore the direct statement of 1 john 5:11-13 and have as of yet not addressed why it doesn't mean what it so clearly says.

So again, is John and the Holy Spirit in error when they say that we have eternal life when we believe in Christ?


Continued...

 

[Silverhair]

Then it should be easy to explain. So far you've done a dismal job.

There is only one way to peace with God. Sins have been removed. But you're saying, in contradiction to every word of every apostle, that one can reconciled, and yet be in their sins.

The bible explains the truth you just do not want to accept it. You still do not deal with the scripture that I gave you. But that seems to be a standard from a select group here on BB.

As I said before, your calvinism has blinded you to the truth of scripture. If you will not trust scripture then there is nothing I can do to help you.

 

[Aaron]

The bible explains the truth you just do not want to accept it. You still do not deal with the scripture that I gave you. But that seems to be a standard from a select group here on BB.

As I said before, your calvinism has blinded you to the truth of scripture. If you will not trust scripture then there is nothing I can do to help you.

Au contraire, you do not understand the very words of the Scritpures. And I do. And all you can do is rail against labels.

 

[Darrell C]

The difference is that you say it starts when they trust in Christ and I say it starts when believes are in heaven with Christ.

And you already know that isn't the case:

Man hears and believes the gospel, confesses that Christ Jesus is Lord and God saves him because of that confession.

I am well aware of whose sins were covered. Those that believe.

Salvation is the gift of God that only those that believe in the Son receive.

In these quotes you are not teaching that eternal salvation begins when believers finally make it to Heaven.

It is when they believe. That is what Scripture teaches.

Can you see how you are contradicting yourself here? Again, I am not trying to be hostile, just trying to show you the reality of the conflict that arises in your doctrine. You either believe Eternal Salvation is Eternal, and is, as John states, received when man believes, or, you don't.

You can't say both, and that is precisely what I see here.

Can you deny that you are saying two things at once? And that your teaching is in conflict with itself?


Continue...

 

[Silverhair]

I just don't see that: what you are teaching is a chance for eternal salvation if one makes the grade.

That isn't the Eternal Life Christ came to give.

And you ignore the direct statement of 1 john 5:11-13 and have as of yet not addressed why it doesn't mean what it so clearly says.

So again, is John and the Holy Spirit in error when they say that we have eternal life when we believe in Christ?


Continued...

As I said you see OSAS in the bible I do not. You take scripture that says people can fall away and then add in your own words to make it fit your view. If you think someone can fall away from a position they never held then that is your choice to do so, not logical, but you can hold to it.

 

[Silverhair]

Au contraire, you do not understand the very words of the Scritpures. And I do. And all you can do is rail against labels.

Do you not see that you are just a bit arrogant in your comments. Since when did you become the arbiter of all that was correct in regard to scripture. The word humble is not part of your vocabulary it would seem.

 

[Darrell C]

Your think man can not reject his salvation and I believe man can reject his salvation.

On the contrary, I have consistently stated that man can and does reject salvation.

But that is when they are under the Ministry of the conviction of the Comforter. That is the only time natural man can understand the reality of the GOspel, and either receive or reject it.

Do I think believers can fall away to the point where they deny Christ? Yes. Why? There are numerous reasons/

Does that mean their salvation is forfeit?

No. Because Eternal Salvation is taught in Scripture as exactly that: forever.

It wasn't gained by man's efforts, nor is is "lost" by his efforts or a lack thereof.

We could go back and forth on this for a number of posts but you will still think the same way and so will I.

Not always the case. It may be that I only plant a seed, and that you continue in holding to this belief, but when you come across these passages we will deal with you will have something else to consider besides the way you now view them.

My question for you is, why do you think someone that has rejected faith in Christ Jesus would want to be in heaven and further why do you think God who is love would want to force them to be there with Him?

I have spent a lot of time debating Atheists. One particular Atheist professed to having once been a Christian but he declared he was now no more a Christian.

His reason? His seven-year-old son died, and he blamed God for not sparing his life.

I mean, how could a good, righteous, merciful God let his son die?

I agree, How could a good, righteous, and merciful God let His Son die?

See the point? This man couldn't understand that it is because God is just and merciful that He can allow a son, even His Son, and especially His Son—to die.

His reasoning was carnal, rooted in his feelings, and not rooted in the principles of the righteousness of God versus the righteousness of man.

In his mind he was more good, more righteous, and more just than God, because he would have never let a son die.

Aren't glad God is God, and doesn't think like man?

Whether this man was a Christian and saved or not is not for me to judge. I can only minister as I feel led by God. If he was saved, his grief over his son will not render his Eternal Union broken. If he wasn't saved, it may be that this tragedy is the very thing that might lead this man to understanding.

But I would suggest that it is no consequence that false teachers come up in Scripture when the issue of being led astray comes up. I think that is the number one method of Satan in leading men astray, saved or not.

Now, does your proof text of "apostasy" speak about false teachers, or not? Is that not the context?


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Yes, I agree that only God is eternal and as long as we are in Christ we are eternal. But note the condition “in Christ”. When someone rejects Christ Jesus he is no longer in Christ is he.

Yes. Because there is nothing in Scripture that nullifies the fact that we are immersed into God in Eternal Union and that is everlasting.

You have said we receive eternal life once we get to Heaven. That has been shown to be something even you don't believe. You are now saying men receive eternal life by believing, but lose it if they then reject Christ. Your doctrine is in conflict, and this is going to happen when our doctrine is in error. When it is sound it will not conflict with itself.

Please note what Joh 6:54 says Joh 6:54 Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.

Whoever eats & whoever drinks has eternal life which are present tense {continuing action}. But note the condition as we see in the prior verse. If you do not do this then you are not part of Christ Jesus.

I thought you were Baptist, lol.

This is a Catholic position. Salvation is sustained by partaking of Communion.

Do you hold to Transubstantiation? That is basically the root of this doctrine.

But, I know you aren't Catholic, so I will ask you, do you see how your doctrine is being formed by the opposition to the conflicts that arise? It is being adjusted right before my very eyes, even as we speak.

You said men receive eternal life by believing. Then you said they receive eternal life when they get to Heaven. Now you say it is sustained by eating and drinking.

Could you just choose between one of the two positions so we can go from there?

Those that believe in Christ Jesus will partake of the body & the blood but if you latter reject Him you would not. As we see in Joh 6:47 Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life. So we see here that faith is the condition for eternal life.

Do you see how you must avoid questions posed to you? Sound Doctrine has an answer for every man that asketh, lol.

So I will ask again, what does this...


Hebrews 10:14 King James Version

14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.


... mean?


God bless.

 

[Aaron]

Do you not see that you are just a bit arrogant in your comments. Since when did you become the arbiter of all that was correct in regard to scripture. The word humble is not part of your vocabulary it would seem.

Let's start defining words then. And that brings us back to the very beginning. What does it mean to be reconciled?

 

[Silverhair]

Yes. Because there is nothing in Scripture that nullifies the fact that we are immersed into God in Eternal Union and that is everlasting.

You have said we receive eternal life once we get to Heaven. That has been shown to be something even you don't believe. You are now saying men receive eternal life by believing, but lose it if they then reject Christ. Your doctrine is in conflict, and this is going to happen when our doctrine is in error. When it is sound it will not conflict with itself.




I thought you were Baptist, lol.

This is a Catholic position. Salvation is sustained by partaking of Communion.

Do you hold to Transubstantiation? That is basically the root of this doctrine.

But, I know you aren't Catholic, so I will ask you, do you see how your doctrine is being formed by the opposition to the conflicts that arise? It is being adjusted right before my very eyes, even as we speak.

You said men receive eternal life by believing. Then you said they receive eternal life when they get to Heaven. Now you say it is sustained by eating and drinking.

Could you just choose between one of the two positions so we can go from there?




Do you see how you must avoid questions posed to you? Sound Doctrine has an answer for every man that asketh, lol.

So I will ask again, what does this...


Hebrews 10:14 King James Version

14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.


... mean?


God bless.

I read your comments and I have wonder if you are replying to a different thread. Some of the conclusions you come to are just not in what I posted. You are letting your OSAS ideas dictate what you see when you read a post. You may think that your view is correct and that is OK. But my views are based on what I see in the bible. You disagree, that's OK. I really do not need you to show me the way, thanks anyway.

 

[Silverhair]

Let's start defining words then. And that brings us back to the very beginning. What does it mean to be reconciled?

Read my posts. I do not have the time nor the desire to plow this field with you again. You think that a select few were saved at the cross but that is not what the bible says but your calvinism requires it. So you stick with your calvinism and I will stick with the bible.

 

[Aaron]

Joh 3:17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

I have always taken it to be that only those that believe will be saved. As we see in the next verse those that do not believe are condemned because of that decision.

Let's talk about these words for a while, then.

"Might be saved," is one word, and it doesn't mean there is uncertainty. The phrase is used in Mark 5:23, where the ruler says to Jesus, Come and lay thy hands on her that she may be healed.

There was no doubt that if Christ laid His hands on her, she would be healed.

NIV He pleaded earnestly with him, "My little daughter is dying. Please come and put your hands on her so that she will be healed and live."​

And also in 1 Corinthians 5:5, where Paul instructs them to deliver an immoral man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved .

There is no doubt, that if one's carnal nature is destroyed in this life, his spirit will be saved in the Day of the Lord.

NLT Then you must throw this man out and hand him over to Satan so that his sinful nature will be destroyed and he himself will be saved on the day the Lord returns.​

And so John 3:17, NIV For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

NLT God sent his Son into the world not to judge the world, but to save the world through him.

CSB For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

There is no doubt, that if God sends His Son into the world, that it will be saved.

We've already talked about how the term 'world' was used by Christ and His Apostles.



Now this is not to say the 'might be saved' is a wrong translation. It's saying that 'might be saved' is a certainty. Now our usage of the single term 'might' has changed, but it still retains it's certain sense: If your wife ever said, "Come move this transmission so I can take a bath," you might be a redneck.